Immigration! The Next Big Push?

Even as the Obama administration works to convince the American public that the Affordable Health Care Act is not the unmitigated failure that it obviously is, they are currently also working to build the next puzzle  piece in the Obama legacy. Immigration reform. Or as many will see it, amnesty.

As even the most ardent supporters of the President are forced to admit that Obamacare has been a failure out of the gate, be it the ever-growing number of large companies that were exempted by the administration, right up to the failure to launch of the website, to the abysmal lack of interest by America’s young adults, the very people needed to make this scam work, we see the Obama administration working to shift the focus off of that failure onto immigration.

The question is, will the opposition handle the immigration reform battle any better than they did the battle against Obamacare?

There is no question that there is an ever-growing problem in the form of illegal immigrants moving into this country. But how to solve this problem?

As always it will be defined as a left v. right in the media, and of course the fringe elements on both sides of the political spectrum will happily play their roles.

We will have the hard left shouting about how the right is racist for not wanting to allow open borders, and the hard right will be shouting about how the illegals are stealing jobs and resources.

So who is right? Well as always, there is truth on both sides.  The immigrants that come here do take jobs that could be filled by American citizens, and they do avail themselves of the ever-growing list of entitlement programs that are available to all who apply.

And on the other side, there is clearly racism embedded within much of the rhetoric of the hard right. Often the opposition to the immigrants is hidden beneath the call for constitutional justice, when in reality the opposition is simply the fear and loathing of a people who are different from ones own self.

I will leave the discussion of the left’s point of view to people who see themselves as being better suited to discuss, and defend that view. I, seeing myself as a conservative, will address the views, and the goals of the conservative movement and the Republican Party.

Anyone paying attention should see that Pres. Obama and the Democrats are building towards making immigration the next big campaign issue. They have pushed through Obamacare, and in doing so demonstrated the GOP’s inability to deal with a PR nightmare, that being the faction within the GOP that sees itself as being the face and the voice of the new GOP. This faction chose to use carnival sideshow barker tactics to gin up support for their fight against Obamacare, which in the end backfired, and caused more Americans to move away from the conservative message. It also allowed the President, and the Democrats to look reasonable, while implementing the single most radical change in the history of America.

So, will we see the same tactics again employed, to oppose the radical ideas of the Obama administration when it comes to immigration reform? I am afraid that yes we will. The radical faction within the GOP is obviously blind and deaf, if only they were mute, when it comes to political maneuvering. They are actually out there making the argument that losing by a close margin in the governor’s race in Virginia is somehow a victory. Do these people understand, that you don’t get to govern, if you don’t win?

In my view, the GOP must do a better job of messaging on all issues, and especially on immigration. Right now the GOP is seen as race haters, that we are for breaking up families, and are against people seeking the American dream. We have allowed the media to paint us in this manner, in large part, by allowing race haters to be the loudest voices on this issue from the right.

In my opinion the GOP should take a position of prioritizing the problems facing the nation on the issue of immigration.

Instead of the sweeping all or nothing, “we have to pass it before we will know what is in it”, mentality that lead us into the fiasco of Obamacare, the GOP should be pushing for calmer heads this time. We should be talking about one piece of the puzzle at a time. In my view, the most important and pressing factor on immigration reform is border security.

We cannot talk about how to create a path to citizenship for those already here, until we staunch the flow of immigrants that simply walk into the country over our southern border. However, border security is not a simple case of fences and guards, we must also remove the benefits of coming here illegally.  Controlling the influx of immigrants that come here outside the laws of this nation is a multi-pronged issue.

The number one issue of immigration reform is stopping, or at least slowing, the number of immigrant coming into the country illegally, or as undocumented, if that feels better for you. To do this, we will need more border guards, we will need more fences, we will need laws that punish employers who hire people without documentation of citizenship, or other forms of legal status that allows them to be a positive contribution to the nation, rather than a negative drain on the infrastructure.

Until America has at least gotten a reasonable hand hold on this problem, then there is no reason to address the other issues of immigration, such as a path to citizenship for those already here.

This does not mean that we should simply turn a blind eye towards those who managed to get in under the radar. If an immigrant breaks the laws of this nation, then they should be punished, if they are a non-citizen, then they should be deported.  If we are to be a nation of laws, then those laws must be enforced equally.

What I expect to see on immigration reform from the left is an all out offensive to pass reform that creates a path to citizenship, and bestows all of the benefits of citizenship, without any real focus on border security.

What I would hope to see from the right is a push to secure the borders, and to sanctify the act of becoming a citizen of this nation, beyond simply being able to avoid detection.

This brings me to messaging. In the past the right in general, and the GOP specifically have been demonized for their position on immigration. This has not been hard to do considering some of the rhetoric coming from the right, be it talk radio, or other organizations that see themselves as patriot guards of all things America.

Too often this rhetoric, while replete with words like, “liberty, justice, constitutional, patriotism”, is at best window-dressing for the underlying feelings of those most passionate about this issue. When one listens carefully, one will also hear words like, “these people, those people, Mexicans”, and in some cases even more overtly racist statements.

We on the right must first realize and address the fact that many who oppose immigration reform do so simply out of fear of things unknown, or different from themselves. They oppose all reform because they see any immigrant as being a negative influence on their view of what it means to be an American, which considering our history is beyond ironic.

If the right, and the GOP, are to change the views held of our stance on immigration, then we must first recognize that it is not the immigrants themselves that we should be opposing. It is our government, and coextensively, our own failure to address this societal problem. We must shift the focus from the individual immigrant, to the cause of this problem, which is a lack of enforcement of existing laws on the part of our federal government.

We should not however allow ourselves to be seen as opposing people who wish only to come here to share in the American dream of Liberty and prosperity while insisting that they do so legally. In most cases these are hard-working family oriented people, not unlike anyone of us who were born of this nation. They work so as to support their families, to raise their children to live a better life then they have had themselves. They seek to buy homes, to start businesses, to be members of a community. Unfortunately they have begun this journey in a way that forces them to live within closed self-contained communities, which prohibits them from becoming members of the larger national community. This only adds to the fear and mistrust of the American citizens that see them as invaders.

This issue has morphed from being one of national security, into simply a political football. It is no longer about the sovereignty of  America’s borders, but is painted as being solely about the people seeking to enter this nation. The left shares as much fault in this as does the right. The left has played on the emotions of people by portraying this as an issue of purely the individual impact of the people coming here, the right has played on the emotions and fears of people who see the immigrants as invaders.

When really the issue is about the rule of law, and the equal enforcement of those laws, and about the impact upon the nation as a whole. I would encourage my fellow conservatives to focus not on the immigrants themselves, but to focus on the failure of the government to do that which it is charged with, upholding the principles and values, and laws of this nation.


26 Comments on "Immigration! The Next Big Push?"

  1. waterpirate says:

    We are one of a few countries in the free world who assign citizenship, based on place of birth, not the country of origin of the birth parents. That means we have created an entire population of minor children who are u.s. citizens under the care of parents that are not residing here legally.

    The solution that may be viable gowing forward is to stop granting citizenship based on place of birth. How you address the illeagal parents of legal minors is not so easy.

  2. Frank Knotts says:

    WP, you are partially correct, because we do not assign said citizenship based on being born here in all cases. If a woman from Australia is visiting here while pregnant and happens to give birth to her child while here, does anyone even consider that the child is a U.S. citizen? No. That women would have to apply for citizenship for herself and her child.

  3. Laffter says:

    Frank- under the 13th amendment you are wrong
    The child is, based on place of birth, a US Citizen automatically.

    She actually has to register the birth with the Australian embassy for them to be Australisn as well

    We go by PLACE OF BIRTH, other countries go by BLOOD

    And yes, there is a very very small niche market for this, mostly used by wealthy Chinese .

    It does not matter the immigration status of the mother. Only that the child is born on US soil and to change that requires a constitutional amendment

  4. Laffter says:

    Ps – the mother could not apply for US citizenship BYW
    SHE is not eligible

    However, when the child turns 21 – the child, if living in the states could apply then for the mother.
    The mother has no grounds to become a US citizen

    One cannot adjust to US citizen is the child is born here- thus we have legal US citizens with “illegal” parents (undocumented) and we have the horrible situation of the parents being deported and having to make the choice of taking their US CITIZEN children back to the home country or leaving them here as ICE has no jurisdiction over US citizens

    Thus we have families torn apart.
    Most take their children home with them – and those US citizens, will be knocking on our door when they turn 18.
    They are US citizens , eligible for all rights and benefits, without having grown up here, not speaking the language or being assimilated

    We are and have been creating a GODZILLA, that will eventually bite us in the butt, and this needs to be fixed

    Ex except no one has the balls to do it- we have been kicking this can down the road for 20 years

    For the recorded, illegal immigration has been at net zero now for a couple of years and this administration deports about 500,00 per year , more than any other president, ever.

    Let’s fix it- the border is secure, we have accomplished that…the numbers show it.- there is, in really no way to FENCE 2000 miles of the roughest terrain out there, plus all out ports and the border with Canada- coz there are a lot that come that way- but they are WHITE illegal immigrants so Noone bitches.

    Seriously, USC title 8 – and the 13th amendment…..I’ll have the discussion , no problem but I also want the borders secured equally.
    But we need to deal with the human crises that congressional neglect and cowardice has left to fester.

  5. Frank Knotts says:

    Laffter, I believe you mean the 14th Amendment, and I stand corrected. I could make the original intent argument, in that the 14th was ratified in 1865 to see that slaves were afforded citizenship following the Civil War and was never intended to allow for our current situation. During other immigrant influxes, immigrant for the most part applied for and earned their citizenship, thus their offspring were afforded citizenship through the bloodline. Unlike our current problem of immigrants coming here outside the legal channels, and taking advantage of a loophole.
    As for the current slump in the number of people coming in illegally, well that has a lot to do with the down turn in the housing market and the recession. Goes back to my point of removing the incentives for coming here, that being jobs. If there are no jobs available, be it due to a recession, or if employers are unwilling to risk prosecution, then we will see fewer immigrant risking the trek.
    I agree that fences are not the single silver bullet, nor is blanket amnesty. This is where the right and the left must find compromise that is best for the nation as a whole. And while it may sound harsh, our first concern must be for actual citizens and the nation.

  6. Laffter says:

    We both stand corrected, yes, it’s the 14th…..

    But I agree, American jobs for American workers FIRST and FORMOST

    the way to do that is to have the quotas for immigrant labor more flexible and more responsive to the need and demand for labor.
    When our economy shrinks, so does the need for labor, therefore the visa quota shrinks

    When we have boom times we lift the quota levels to meet the need,

    We have a quota level that is NOT responsive to the needs of the economy- it is a fixed number,
    Look at Rehoboth, the visa quota is filled by the 2nd week of January every year, small businesses that need the labor can’t get it- and draconian laws do nothing but result in anger, racial profiling and produce rotting in the fields- see, Alabama, Arizona and Georgia

    Talk to the Farmers about the AG BILLS and how heavily they rely on migrant labor

    That said- instead of deionizing the little guy, the immigrant working to feed a family, we DO need to go after those who profit from illegal labor, not that the folks labor inc are illegal , but that those that hire them knowing they should not be working, they are profiting from labor that is not legitimate.

    And we have it all over Sussex county and the entire state, it’s a dirty little secret- and the first people to rail against illegal immigrants while sipping their single- malts at the country or golf clubs are the very ones that whisper if they can get some one to do their lawn, or clean their house or watch the kids- pay cash, under the table

    The hypocracy of it stinks – and I see it all the time as do you- and the people that screm the most about it are the ones that sneak the labor out their back doors.

  7. Laffter says:

    And out immigrant ancestors had to do nothing but get here and they got citizenship.

    It changed slowly over the years, after Ellis Island was built, but many immigrants, either swam NY Harbor to avoid it OR had someone row them ashore while the ship was held in quarantine to avoid Ellis Island

    Many many many Americams have illegal immigrant ancestors- and frankly, even the Pilgrims were illegal immigrants

    As a wonderful state Representative from Oklahoma ( female Native American)told her state legislature- ” when YOU say ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT-I look at you and say yes, you are”

    Pretty profound- especially from the Native Perspective- they consider Columbus as someone who began genocide against them.

  8. Laffter says:

    This is what it looks like when a nation removes birthright citizenship

    Pretty ugly- and pretty racists and WHY would the US want to emulate a third world country?

    Dominican Republic Reinstates An Old Form Of Racism,0,5489523.story#axzz2kBvaSzQB

  9. waterpirate says:

    Not what I had in mind. If you attempt to strip or cleanse the rights of people who allready have them you are as guilty as other groups in history. If you change the law moving only forward you get change, albeit slow.

    I do not have a problen with this country asserting it’s soveriegn rights. I only have a problem removing them from people who allready have them.

  10. Laffter says:

    Well put WP and agreed

  11. Laffter says:

    I’m opening a can of worms here- but let’s put it on the table

    Where does your comment above leave the Roe v Wade debate ?
    This is something women have had for 4o years

    Frank- this would make for a good post- it is contentious but as WP said- it’s hard to strip something from people who have already had it

  12. waterpirate says:

    I can not equate Roe vs. Wade with the rights of citizenship. 2 entirely different discussions. Laws are written, tried, repealed, and changed all the time based on current politcal ideology. That is why tinkering around with the constitution is such a slipery slope.

    If you are soliciting an opinion from me about Roe vs. Wade, here it is. I support the fredoms of the individual to make choices that directly affect them, without any interferance from the govt.

    What Roe vs. Wade really did for society was move abortion out of dirty hotel rooms, and back rooms in bars.

    The choice to terminate a pregnancy is clearly and only between the Mother, the Father and their God. The role of Govt. is to protect their right to choose, not enforce or imply political or religious bias.

    I am sure the flying spahgetti monster will be along shortly to re-educate my religious beliefs. lol!

  13. Tuxamus Maximus V says:

    I can’t argue with anything written/commented on this post and for the most part agree with all that is written here except for the one line Frank wrote “The immigrants that come here do take jobs that could be filled by American citizens, and they do avail themselves of the ever-growing list of entitlement programs that are available to all who apply.” and of that only the first part do I disagree.

    “The immigrants that come here do take jobs that could be filled by American citizens…” is my issue here.

    Having been involved with a number of interests over the years the following is not only true but a continuing issue for a number of construction types of business and I will share the latest version of it with you now.

    Consider a fellow named ‘Chuck’ that has a roofing business. Chuck had a problem with being able to hire men with VALID drivers license’s and without enough of them he had to shuttle at least one back to the shop to get all the needed vehicles to the work site.

    Why don’t they have a VALID drivers license? DUI’s and not paying child support are the two big reasons. There are other reasons but please understand that just showing up at the shop on time is reason enough to not keep a job. Showing up hung over is one thing but not on time cuts productivity. Showing up at all is yet another issue.

    So Chuck is stuck with doing his job as business owner and shuttling workers at both the start end end of day. When does he have time to do estimates?

    Chuck at some point in time is made aware that there are Mexicans that have VALID drivers license’s and hires one. He shows up for work early every day and never complains. Speaks enough English to get by but isn’t treated well by the ones that use cell phones all day long. Chuck lets another guy go and hires another Mexican and roofs are going on not only faster but with an even higher quality of work.

    The ‘citizens’ don’t like that they are being replaced by someone that doesn’t command our language (and some of them have issues with speaking it as well) but the hard truth is that if they wanted to ‘work’ they wouldn’t drink and drive and pay the child support for kids they made. They would show up on time for work and not be hung over.

    Chuck, and others like him, need a workforce. Do they like hiring Mexicans? They’d all rather not but it’s a necessary part of doing business now and it’s not just here that this phenomena happens.

    If ‘citizens’ want jobs they have to do what it takes to get and keep the jobs. Some feel entitled to have a job in my opinion.

    There is so much more that I could add to this but the bottom line is the “could” in “…take jobs that could be filled by American citizens…” isn’t really the case anymore.

    Chuck now has two very good crews. One does shingle roofs and the other metal roofs and they stay busy. Last time I spoke with him he was overwhelmed with estimates and booked weeks in advance looking to put on another crew buying more equipment. Each crew has a ‘citizen’ supervisor and just enough VALID drivers so that he hasn’t shuttled in well over a year. The ‘citizens’ that remain have straightened up their acts and show up on time using the cells less often. “Simply Amazing” is what I heard from Chuck when we spoke in front of a Lowes two months ago.

    All I can add is that I don’t know how Mexicans get a VALID drivers license but they do and they WORK all day and don’t stop to answer calls or text messages.

    I don’t remember how many years ago it was I first heard “I don’t care if they don’t do anything on the work site but if they have a valid divers license they have a job with me.” Chuck wasn’t the first one I heard that from and won’t be the last.

    In the end Frank it’s not if they ‘could’ work it’s do they WANT to work. Are they (citizens) willing to not drink and drive? Will they pay enough child support to keep a license? Will they show up on time? Are they willing to do the jobs that are available that don’t take even a high school diploma to make a living? Will they work for minimum to start and prove they will do what it takes? With Chuck it’s two weeks and you get a dollar raise. Four weeks another dollar and it goes on until they are getting at least a living wage.

    Or would they rather just sit back and not take, or work, a job that’s ‘beneath’ them. It’s a vicious circle out there and jobs are available….IF they want a job and have no real education.

    So much more I could add to this but I’m long winded and this is something I can write of myself with personal knowledge. It’s not just roofing. Paving, lawn care, guttering and many other similar businesses need dependable workers with a VALID drivers license that appreciate a paycheck.

    Employers don’t need employes showing “you tube” videos to one another, or replying to baby momma texts on a work site…they need WORKERS. I certainly don’t have time to watch that kind of stuff at any time of day or night as I wear too many hats every day as it is in my life.

    Cudos to Laffter in the Roe vs. Wade thing but like the TM’s I’m not willing to find the softest part of a block wall to beat my head against with Frank on that one!

    Beat me up for making the above comment all you want commentator’s but when I was made aware of this post I had to make a statement.

    Lastly…I want to write that I really do agree with what Frank wrote in this post. Nicely done and doing your best to see it from both sides….and the middle as well. You really do deserve respect for your efforts.

  14. Frank Knotts says:

    TMV, the “could” in my post implies all that you have listed. The jobs could be taken by citizens, “if” they were willing to do the things you have listed and more. I also have seen first hand the industrious nature of many of the immigrant workers. They eat their lunches on the job site in many cases and work weekends and holidays to fill contracts on time and ahead of time.
    This is not to say that there are not hard working American citizens willing to work just as hard, there are. Unfortunately they seem to be a dying breed.

  15. Laffter says:

    WP- very well put and I agree with your post

    I can disagree with Frank on the issue – but like this immigration thread- the conversation is civil , and the issue discussed

    I think there is a lot of common ground that I, Frank, TM s. (All of them) dave WP , all have together although out political leaning may be different in some areas

    The big difference is those that spew venom are missing – YEAH and without them! maybe DE can move forward.

    Thanks FRANK

  16. waterpirate says:

    The bigger underlying issue is that some where along the way ” blue collar ” came to denote a derragatory station in life. The same can be said for service positions. They are what you do untill your masters degree in basket weaving really takes off.

    Motivation and initiative is what is missing. In todays electronic world of instant gratification, if I can not get it right now, I do not need it.

    A world full of children that fail to launch, useless degrees, and the notion that labor is for the feeble minded. I blame the excesses of middle management for this. By the way ” Has anyone seen my red stapler?”

  17. Tuxamus Maximus V says:

    Waterpirate, Laffter and Frank and anyone else out there reading. I’m just conecerned that I’m sounding like the elders that spoke similarly about my (and probably most of us) generation in what they said about us when we were younger. I try to take it with a grain of salt but when I see how much more motivated the Mexicans are compared to this generation X and later it just blows me away. Some have a great work ethic but most of those are educated and wouldn’t know the working end of a shovel,

    I blame the families…or lack of family. It’s a long harangue that I’m just not willing to get into and it doesn’t require religion but somewhere along the line things changed and it was OK to make babies and just move on along. Those that drop out of high school don’t even have a chance or clue and think that for some reason they should be allowed to pass on manual labor jobs or just show up when they are ready to work. It mystifies me. Add the piercings, tattoos and colored hair/styles and it’s something that we just can’t get past. Try them out and it’s either too hot or too cold to work outdoors and they bring nothing to the table. They can be green top to bottom if they can work IT wonders on computer systems and be hidden but they at least have a degree in computer sciences. I could go on and on with this but for the actual grunt workers that have less than a high school education that need to know the working end of a shovel (referred to here as a Mexican Hand Warmer) is as good as it gets it’s time to leave the phones in the cars and get after it or they won’t be working much longer. I’m cool with the Mexicans and anyone else that wants to emulate the work ethic they show EVERY DAY.

    Note to Laffter. You’re funny and yet to want to do anything but nod my head “YEAH MAN” to all I’ve read over time! The TM’s are on short leash for now as they have no need to play “whack a mole” and got out of hand.

    Frank,…I wouldn’t be here but this subject is driving me, and others nuts. The need to real WORKERS is forcing the issue and out of control. Some of us here want to see the border walls and fences taken down so real work and productivity can get going again.

    Waterpirate gets no argument from this guy either. That last comment (and others) is dead on.

    Y’all have fun!

  18. Laffter says:

    TM- big hug to you- all several hundred pounds……lol
    And WP, again I find myself agreeing with you. Scary….LOL

    if congress could respond faster to the needs of the economy, it sure would make it easier. But we secured the border, making it more dangerous , difficult and therefore expensive to cross from the south anyway……

    So, once they get here, they stay, back in the old days, they came and went as the economy changed,,,,,,,yes, self-regulation and free enterprise.

    But now, find a job, find a mate, have kids and stay. Because we secured the border. While most intended to come for a few years and make a fortune and then go home, which is what used to happen… they pay thousands get here, still thinking ” I will go home” but them LIFE happens and they wake up several years later with a mate and 3 children and their life is here now.

    No one wants to be an ex-patriot for long. It’s difficult. But it happens.

    There is a reasonable way to do this, we just have to get congress to listen … do we do that? Well, the squeaky wheel gets the grease……so let’s start squeaking as some one once told me….

    We at least can come to consensus in here..and all the discussion has been reasonable…..the hard right and the hard left need to be left out of the conversation until they grow up and learn to talk in turn, using an inside voice

    That’s all folks…..

  19. waterpirate says:

    Delaware has a huuuuge blue collar labor shortage. I really do not understand why, but I can tell you the result. The glut in work force is being filled by people who are not working cheaper, but by people who do not speak or read english, do not understand the importance of building best practices, and building codes. Quite frankly they do not care. Why would they? They are performing substandard work, albeit fast, with absaloutely no responsability or culpability out the back end.

    Do you think your high end builder cares? They will simply hide behind the corporate umbrella, and point fingers at the subcontracters. Or in the case of Gemcraft, quietly go bust and screw everybody.

    This legion of unskilled labor is performing critical work with no supervision. A very flawed business model for the consumer as well as the provider.

  20. Tuxamus Maximus V says:

    Laffter! You really are a hoot! You can make Frank’s playhouse a fun place to read and I’m kind of enjoying being here again. Hug and back slap to ya!

    I could only wish it were just several hundred pounds though. Depending on the IT that is there I think the number would be closer a half ton at any given time. Agreeing with WP really isn’t as scary as it used to be for me when it did happen but that’s another time and place for discussion. He’s making sense on this topic!

    Concerning the topic it seems that a number of issues combine here with education being the one that everything else seems to orbit. It got so bad at one point that ECC (employs well over 9000 not including subs) had to build a school just to train HS grads how to work there. If you don’t have at least an AA degree, or grad that school, you don’t even get considered. Everything is so automated and computerized now that it takes real intelligence just to do what it takes in not blowing up a huge plastic and chemical plant. Hard honest truth anymore.

    Don’t want to continue your education and there is a huge drop off in what is considered a living wage. Service industry, flipping burgers, retail sales or the working end of a shovel type job.

    No HS diploma and it’s even worse! That’s where the ‘Latino’ population is filling the gap between those that might show up and do something in a day or having them show up on time, work a full day and have a smile on their faces when they show up the next morning.

    You (Laffter) wrote about how they now come and stay and that, once again, is dead on right and as I see it now. I’ve got no problem with it anymore. For the most part they are decent people that are trying and just because they don’t speak the lingo (and they are learning) is something I, and others, are getting past quickly because they are providing a commodity (WORK) that is needed and they do it with a smile. Busting one’s hump gets them to the head of the line now more than ever before and they are honest for the most part.

    They have their own stores from food to tires now. The only time we hear complaints seems to be from the ones they took jobs from, or have to work with, is the reality now. It’s an ever changing world. Get educated or get replaced. Work hard or get replaced. Moan and groan enough and you will get replaced. It’s an at will state kind of thing.

    They are NOT going back either. They are setting up shop and home and better tenants as well.

    Just over two years ago about 30 of us had a sit down with our congressman on the immigration issue. He’s an R and when it was all over and some of us were talking in the parking lot and one of the guys stated he “thought he heard the wind passing through his head”. He did listen but did NOTHING but hold the party line. A year later we tried to do it again with high hopes but we didn’t even got the opportunity. Little by little things have changed and productivity is up.

    They pay sales taxes (opps a dead giveaway on my part) and as renters they actually do pay rent which pays property taxes. Where is the problem?

    Our congressman hears what he wants to hear and does what he needs to be reelected. Our small group means little in the big picture he sees. Squeaking is a waste of time to us and we’ve moved on.

    Waterpirate makes a point as well but the high end builder here has a greater pool of which can be selected. Although actual tradesman have ‘issues’ they do show up and some are union and that actually helps in some cases. Expensive? Yeah but if you want quality you have to pay…thus the high end. Just my opinion.

    Not long ago ECC announced a 1.6 BILLION expansion and that’s making a huge difference in my region. High end builders are ramping up because high end buyers are going to be coming in due time. Speaking with one last week he’s going to have a group of workers that do grunt work that will cover the needs of the tradesman. “You can speak Martian and carry a block or dig a hole…and even drive a Bobcat.” We are adapting…unlike our congressman.

    As for the high end builders not caring that may be a DE issue. Here it’s an issue if you don’t care because you don’t stay around long. Seen that happen a few times.

    Don’t have a clue about ‘Gemcraft’ but will by this time next week…won’t I TM’s? If I’m lucky I will by later Friday (tomorrow) afternoon.

    I hope I’m being ‘reasonable’ as Laffter eluded to in his last submission. This is a topic that used to concern me (and it still does) greatly until a certain ‘point’, or ‘line’, was crossed by the ‘congressman’. Choices have been made. If citizen ‘parents’ don’t start doing a better job than others the offspring will just be bumps on the log. If they aren’t being raised with an ethic of some kind and they come out of HS not having what it takes there will be others that will have what it takes.

    Enough for now. Hope it all makes sense.

  21. Dave says:

    “Or in the case of Gemcraft,”

    Aka “Gemcrap” at least in my circles.

  22. waterpirate says:

    For the longest time the caller ID identified them as ” germcraft ” which seemed fitting then, and even more so now. As for the spanish speaking population only filling the shovel jobs, you are far off the mark for this region. Carpenters, framers, flooring, plumbing, electrical, siding, drywall. They satisfy the whole gammet of construction. Unliscensed, un supervised, and un accountable.

  23. Laffter says:

    As far as the bulilding trades go, I know that during the construction process there are inspections during the process . Therefore, thank goodness, they should be able to ascertain that code is met- I hope

    That said, I don’t like jobs being taken from American workers, but If American workers are not going to work or work hard , and be driven to succeed…..the ther is an alternative

    I don’t know about you all, but my kids were taught to succeed in school, because competition is fierce and jobs scarce, hard work, ethics and morality, personal morality are high in my list.
    I give no quarter and expect none. I am a task master, And my kids were expected to preform. No excuses.

    For all the screaming, and employers are the WORST the immigrants,as wella a the field hands were doing jobs Americans didn’t want to do

    Remember the website:

    Go check it out, however, that said we need to protect our economy, I just wish there was a lair easy way to do so

  24. Tuxamus Maximus V says:

    @waterpirate and now Dave as well… Germcrap and germcraft are being nice to that outfit. I read others that Frank wouldn’t allow!

    Waterpirate I’m not going to argue your point about substandard labor building a home as I not only agree but want to take it a step further.

    How do you build a Rolls Royce home for the price of a stripped down cheby? You cut a few corners! Quite a few corners! To be honest you just round off all the corners until you get a circle with this particular company.

    Some examples:
    Staples used to put on asphalt shingles? Never met the staple that didn’t rust and they are being used on a roof? I’ve never even met, let alone heard of a roofing staple! Next time I’m in a Lowes or HD I’m going to look for them!!

    While on the subject of shingles did they get 20, 25 or 30 years shingles? My $$$ is betting on the cheap shingles.

    Gutters that aren’t installed without using “hidden hangers” to do the entire install on a high end home? Why bother with gutters at all as those old style nail w/sleeves thing, it’s a “you get what you pay for thing” long ago and somebody is going to have to come back and ‘fix’ the issue. A high end home would be a great place to round off some more of those corners with the cheap stuff.

    Drainage issues? OK where’s the perc test results before the foundation ditch was dug?

    So many issues I was reading off provided links and it was easy to figure that deal out. People that didn’t know better…were scammed.

    If it sounds too good to be true it usually is and when it comes to building high end homes it would be easy to cut costs no one will know about until 5 years down the road when the company went belly up and that is usually planned from the start. There are some really bad people out there!

    A laundry room that doesn’t allow the washer and dryer to be side by side? Apparently one ‘design’ called for that in the plans! Design flaws and construction issues go on and on and in many states!

    Note to Laffter: Where are the building inspectors during all this is the one question that wasn’t supplied and I’m not going to search myself. Building inspectors are a good thing until they take the first kickback…if they do that kind of thing…because that’s not right or legal anywhere…is it?

    One web sight that was built named ‘gemcraftsucks’ or something like that was a blog that got results for owners in a development in I think Texas ! One link I didn’t even bother with apparently shows connect the dots between many of the ‘subcontractors’ that did work on these homes! That’s like cutting off so many corners you’ve actually got a ball when it’s all done. That just takes the whole thing to true scam status…if true.

    In this day and age where there is an answer to almost every question on the internet somewhere not doing research on the contractor doing the build (and apparently the design as well) makes the buyers somewhat responsible for making a bad decision. Is it their fault? I don’t know. Would love to read Laffters take on this thought line!

    I don’t like design/build firms unless a separate and independently paid by the future owner project manager is on site looking after the owners’ interest first and foremost.

    In the end Waterpirate I not only agree with you completely and hope you don’t mind that my adding that substandard materials used by substandard labor leads to substandard products.

    Oh yeah…one more thing! No self respecting professional construction worker would consider doing the things I’ve been scanning through. Hire a guy off the street that has never held a hammer to do much more than hang a picture and you get what you paid for and the owner will never know differently.

    Laffter…concerning your last comment I can only say that over time enough ‘citizen’ laborers in different interests were given opportunities to straighten up and fly right and they would for a while. That it didn’t work out for them was their issue and not ours. I commend you for instilling a work ethic in your offspring! Interesting link you provided.

    Hope this remained on topic.

    Way to go TM J.

  25. Laffter says:

    What would I say to someone building a home….
    Caveat emprator- buyer beware…..!

    Corners cut, delays in building, cost overruns….and the general contractor needs to be well vetted…..the low bid does the low bid work too.

    I have seen home buyers go,with a well respected contra to only to have the builder up and leave with millions of the clients money…..that is so so sad……the home owner is left holding the bag too and out of both home and money.

    It’s tragic. ….that said the employer employs cheap labor to make a bigger profit. But make no mistake, immigrants are not dumb, if the guy down the block is offering more money……they will leave the employer.

    The nerver ending story…..

  26. kavips says:

    Frank, it appears comments are off on all new posts since the one of your father’s passing…

    As someone using wordpress myself was not sure if you were yet aware, since we don’t usually check each post to see if we can comment on our own stuff….

    If you were wondering why no one was commenting, just thought I’d give you a heads up… 🙂

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