It would seem that once again there is a rush to bring the Bible under the control of government. In this case it is again an attempt to put a public school district in charge of teaching about the Bible.
As a Christian myself, I can never understand some of my fellow Christian’s fervor for the idea of putting government, in the form of public school teachers, in charge of teaching about faith and religion.
This time around, it is the Cape Henlopen School Board, or I should say, certain members of the Board, who recently attended a school board convention in San Diego, where they were presented with the idea of a Bible study course by the Bible Literacy Project, who by the way sells the text books used in the course. So basically the board members were given a sales pitch to buy some text books.
On a side note, one must ask the question, who paid for the trip to San Diego?
But the real rub here is, that several of the board members decided to bring up the idea of adding this course to the curriculum, and they did so at the board meeting, instead of going through what seems to be the normal process for a curriculum change. A fact that upset District Superintendent Robert Fulton.
The course would be an elective, meaning that it would not be mandated for all students to take in order to graduate. This in my opinion at least, means that there should be no problem with a separation of church and state claim, also this course is being taught in other schools.
The course would teach about the impact of the Bible on literature throughout history and into modern times. Supposedly the course would be taught without touching on the religious aspects of the Bible, but would merely treat the Bible as a story. Which it is, but to Christians it is the word of God, and is the one truth.
This is where I feel the wheels come off the bus. I do not believe that any human being can teach about the Bible without their personal beliefs coming into play. Whether that be, that they believe the Bible is the word of God or they don’t.
It seems to me that in their passion to bring the Bible back into the school system in any way possible, that some of the board members are losing sight of the bigger picture and the possibly negative impact that this course could end up having on how the Bible will be perceived by future generations.
My concern is that a course such as this may actually diminish the message within the Bible. Let us considering for a moment that teachers who will teach this course will be so guarded about not crossing the line of church and state, that they will go out of their way to insure that the students understand that the Bible is merely a work of literature. How many students will leave this course with no further idea of the Bible beyond this course?
We would be subjecting children not to the truth of the Bible, but they will be told only that it is a great work of literature, they may even come to believe that it is fiction. For how can a teacher even hint at it being true without touching on the faith aspect of believing it? And not cross the line of separation?
This would seem to be another case of board members and others who wish to instill their beliefs upon as many people as possible. However I would warn these passionate Christians against putting faith and religion under the strong-arm of government in any form. Keep your faith in your churches, your communities, and your homes. But beware those who would allow government any say over it, it is a dangerous game of chicken to play.
It matters little whether you dump dirt into water, or water into dirt, you still get dirty water. Do not hand over your faith to government. A course such as this would allow the government to dictate how the message within the Bible would be presented, and this my friends was never the role of government nor the intent of our Founders, and anyone who says otherwise is little better than the Taliban.
Frank, up until the early 1900’s a man was considered illiterate if he did not have a working knowledge of the Bible, regardless of his faith or lack there of. Also the Bible was taught in schools for the entire history of our nation, until the federal government decided to stick it’s nose where it had no Constitutional authority, our schools. Tenet #10 of the Communist Manifesto is ” a free education for all in government run schools”. On a side note , when the children and teachers were shot in the school in Connecticut, we asked, ” where was God”, when the children were killed by the tornado that hit the school in Oklahoma we asked “where was God”? The answer is clear we threw him out of the schools under the false argument of “separation of Church and State”. If there is a problem of separation< I for one say it's time we throw the "State" out instead of God.
Thomas Jefferson ( who the left likes to claim was an agnostic) said “And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever.” Karl Marx ( the author of the communist manifesto) said " It is my goal in life to dethrone God and destroy capitalism". I believe it is time to choose. As for me I choose God and Thomas Jefferson's vision. How about you?
He, I’m all for the bible class
As soon as there is a class offered
on the qur’an,
and the Torah and the
Egyptian book of the dead
And the communist manifesto
Mien Kampf
And the long count
And the Popol Vuh
Etc…….get my drift?
And of the religious right doesn’t like sex Ed- just what are they going to say when the kids get to the Song of Solomon?
My tax dollars fund that and I say NO
I Want my kids to have religion- fine- I will go to Sunday school with my kid. Thanks anyway
Mr. Mayo brilliant comment I agree with everything you stated.
Mr. Knotts do you reside within the Cape Henlopen district, have a student in the district, or attend any board meetings, or know any of the school board members ? I know every member of the school board and none are “trying to instill their beliefs upon as many people as possible”, as you are falsely implying.
The Bible is the oldest piece of literature written and still read, that is a fact. The teaching of the Bible’s importance as a literary document has been going on for years in schools, colleges and universities across our nation. Ones faith is what separates a believer from a non believer, not just words in a book called the Bible.
New class for your wife to teach Billy boy?
Try staying home and parenting while the wife works – avoid your previous parenting mistakes
Far too much time given to the GOP EC, the delaware volunteer guard, the Oathkeepers, the 9/12 patriots, when do y actually spend quality time with the kids.
Yep, Mr Christy knows everything- sees everyone, speaks to all and is omnipotent in all things……
Look , Johnny come lately, Cape has limped along just fine without your input. – I know Sandi is yr buddy, good for you……
Religious texts belong in religious buildings
Scholarly texts belong in scholarly buildings
Unless of course you want the Bible taught in Latin, by the little lady- not enough Italian students or something?
Of course that would make Cape a Seminary, not a public high school
Comment
When the focus is on one books impact it is not objective anymore, it is a focus. What is wrong with the comp lit course now that it needs a focus on the bible? A course in comp religion would be more worthwhile IMO.
waterpirate it’s just another elective course that has been proposed, using one of the oldest written books.
Why isn’t more being discussed about Common Core the federal governments indoctrination plan brought forth by the liberal left?
Why isn’t more being discussed as to why people are allowing the federal government to take over control of public schools instead of the local communities controlling our own schools?
“My tax dollars fund that and I say NO”
Mine as well and I say NO also.
“The Bible is the oldest piece of literature written ”
Actually, unless my sources are wrong the oldest known pieces of literature date from approximately 2600 BC and are Sumerian texts, including the Instructions of Shuruppak and the Kesh temple hymn whereas the oldest sections of the bible date from the 2nd century.
While the bible certainly is a literary work, Sandi Minard and company seem to want to secularize the bible by treating it as literature rather than the word of God. I kinda wonder if they thought this through? While I recognize that this is a roundabout way of continuing the campaign for “putting the Bible back in schools” as Mr. Bodenweiser was campaigning on, it certainly seems to put the bible in same class as Homer and the Illiad. In that context I have no objection to treating it as a piece of literature in that regard. However, I would have to see the syllabus first. And of course, I want to see some indemnification for the taxpayers from the following onslaught of lawsuits to treat other religious works in the same manner as elective courses.
Also, as a Catholic, I must insist that there is consideration for the correct version of the bible and not just the version that some king in England decided he wanted to use.
Maybe Sandi should stick to focusing on bus drivers and not course design.
Mr. Christy, did you even read the entire post? Or are you simply reacting to the fact that I wrote it?
I said that it was an elective. I said that I did not see a separation issue.
My concern is that this type of course without a basis in faith will deminish the message in the Bible. Yes it is a great piece of influencial literature in and of itself, but without the message that it is the one truth, children will not understand that. Also learning about the Bible in an environment that may have a negative peer presure on children, may keep them from expressing their own true feeling about the truth of the Bible.
I don’t happen to know the President of the United States personally, nor do you, that doesn’t stop us from discussing things that can affect us that he does. If Cape instills this course, other districts may follow, and since the children who go through the school system will affect the future of the entire nation, well we all have a reason to be concerned.
I have often spoken out on how to remove state and federal influence from local schools districts, refuse the money, clear and simple, don’t take the hand outs that have the unfunded mandates tied to them. You want to stop CORE, then stop taking all federal and state dollars and fund you local district locally. Not brain surgery, even you should be able to get that one.
Larry, there are Christian schools, if parents want their children to attend schools that are faith based, then send them to a faith based schools. Instead of pushing so hard to get the Bible taught in a public school, where by the way non-Christian citizens and tax payers send their children also, work harder for the right to pay you tax dollars to the school of your own choosing, be it a private Christian school or a public school.
As for the whole “where was God” during the school shootings and tornadoes? That line of thought sounds a bit to close to Westboro Baptist Church thinking for my taste. I prefer to believe that God was right beside those children comforting them in a terrible situation, lifting them up in his loving embrase. The God and Saviour that I put my faith in would not punish innocent children because of the politics of adults. But we all have our own faith.
But Larry, please read again what I have written, I am not concerned of the effect that religion and faith will have on government, but how government will negatively effect faith. This is why I do not understand wanting to place control of how the message of the one truth will be delivered under the strong arm of government.
I am continually amazed that the most out spoken anti- big government people will lobby for government to be in charge of faith in our public schools.
And many times the people who seek to impart their idea of faith on others have not lead their lives under so called “traditional family values”.
Dave, your are forgetting the illness known as selctive memory, in this case it is selective history.
I don’t think that those pushing this idea care about the negaitve effect on the message, they are simply blinded by a desire to say they got the Bible back into the school system.
I do not question their faith, but I do question their judgment. As a non-Catholic, I kind of like my King James Version. Now how to settle this in a public, tax payer supported school district. Whose tax dollars are more important? Catholics, or non-Catholics?
I mean if we are quoting Founding Fathers, I seem to remember something about all men being created equal, and so they are to be treated equal under the laws created by the government they have formed. But maybe the course will deal with the multiple versions of the Bible, of course again, with no basis in faith being added to this discussion, it will only serve to further cloud the message. Good work my good Christain friends.
Tuxamus Maximus agrees with Laffter’s comments. Well put in both Laffter. TO s great degree I agree with Dave as well and a well done in writing the original Mr. Knotts.
All said and done the following comments are going to go over like a lead balloon to the die hard Christians reading this…
Let’s get one thing stated up front. Tuxamus Maximus is a Christian believer like it or not.
The Bible is a great read. Fascinating collection of books and each ‘version’ of the bible has it’s own interpretations of the stories both old and new.
Facing the facts though it’s hard to understand why people feel as though it’s something to live by as there are contradictions throughout the different books.
First of all it a fact that the many books were written in an all but forgotten dialect known as Aramaic. Still spoken but by a very few and as I remember it not the first language of any in this age but taught none the less.
Translated into many languages over time it was in time done in English. If anyone out there doesn’t like the fact that things get ‘lost’ in translation(s) you’re just going to have to get over it because it happens.
Before Gutenberg was allowed to print it it was edited by a Pope (Leo?) and some books (Songs of Solomon, not the Song of Solomon, are just downright Pornographic) were just tossed to the side let alone the revisions done to the Pope’s liking before it even hit the first pressing.
That I’m aware of none, of the books were written by eyewitnesses, let alone first hand hearing of the words of Jesus. It was, in most cases, hundreds of years after Christ was crucified the any of the books were written in the first place. It wasn’t until the ability to actually put ‘pen’ to ‘paper’ that any of the books were written in the first place. Yet to see where someone has produced all, or any, first hand written accounts, in the actual time of Christ.
There is more but why bother as I’m keeping this ‘short’ with no vulgarities per the ‘rules’. Just stirring the pot a bit.
Frank,
Unfairly, probably since you weren’t at the first Board meeting where this was discussed, you’ve attacked some goodhearted individuals. It’s easy to point out someone else’s ignorance so I’ll only say that next time, you should research what it is you’re writing about.
To that end, I WAS in attendance earlier this month when this issue was brought to the Board and so I can speak intelligently as to the events.
First, the Board members who attended the seminar in San Diego did in fact follow procedure. They submitted the proposed curriculum to the curriculum team in the District. They then brought the proposed curriculum before the Board and to the public through the open Board meeting. This wasn’t an attempt to end run any procedure, it was bringing the idea up in a public forum for discussion. That sir, is called transparency.
Second, the course itself is once again butchered, largely because of ignorance of the subject matter (and partially due to the incessant need of some in this culture to attempt to make everyone else as miserable as they are). The whole idea of the course is that it’s “an elective” (that’s voluntary folks) and therefore no one is forced to take it. Just like no one is forced to take any specific language (aside from English) or “Women’s studies”, no one is forced to take this elective course. The course is already taught in nearly 600 schools around the country (including more than 20 in Delaware) and it’s widely acclaimed by public school teachers around the nation. It’s design is to show how the Bible has influenced literature and other forms of art and media.
Third, Bible literacy was considered the norm for the better part of our nation’s history as both a collection of colonies and a federation of states. Children learned to read using the Bible (specifically the King James Version for any who might be confused as to WHICH version was used) and literary concepts were explained using Biblical source text. That’s a simple and obvious fact. Furthermore Frank, you propagate this false notion of “Separation of Church and State”. Show me where the phrase exists in the Declaration of Independence…it’s not there, in fact, the Founders point specifically to “the Creator” (a.k.a. God) as the root of their “unalienable rights” and that the restriction of these rights was their reason for separation. Show me where the Constitution exhibits a Separation clause…not there either as it deals specifically with the realm of law that government can affect which does NOT, (lacking enumeration) include religions or school curricula. Show me where the Bill of Rights includes a Separation clause…not even the 1st Amendment includes the phrase “separation of church and state”. What is contained there are two statements on religion, the first saying that Congress may not establish a single religion as THE religion of the US and the second that FEDERAL Congress (this does not apply to the States, many of whom were established with STATE religions) may not infringe on the rights of others to practice theirs. Offering a public school ELECTIVE class on the Bible falls far short of establishing a state religion (much less a federal one) but the assault by big government backers to use the heavy hand of government to stop such an idea seems to fall right in line with infringing on others. In fact, this may drive Frank and the Delaware Liberal folks crazy but, the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 that laid out the groundwork for westward expansion after the Revolutionary War, state the following “Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.” The Northwest Ordinance being one of the earliest and most important laws in American history kind of throws a monkey wrench in that whole “separation of church and state” thing. A poor interpretation by a radical justice does not the intent of the founders make.
And as for studying Mein Kampf, the Communist Manifesto and all the other books listed in Laffter’s post, I would submit that those are already taught, in amazing detail in some cases, in our public schools (usually in our history classes). As for the other religious texts listed, the Board members specifically did not object to any teachings of other religious texts in other elective classes.
What I find comical is the personal attacks being waged by those in opposition to this and the way they deflect from the truth and attempt to smear those promoting it. It’s quite telling that you aren’t capable of debating the actual curriculum (because I doubt seriously that any of you have taken the time to read it). Your hatred and ignorance abounds, as it always does.
Finally, I’d like to address the academic reason why this class SHOULD be offered in every school, not just Cape. I’m willing to bet a dollar to a doughnut that every leftist who stands up and rails against this class wouldn’t think twice about their child reading Milton’s “Paradise Lost”, or listening to Handel’s “Messiah” or studying Michelangelo’s “David”. The study of each of these deeply religious works is only enhanced by a knowledge of the work on which they are based. What about Moby Dick which is littered with Biblical themes or the Scarlet Letter which is based around Biblical themes. Shakespeare was also profoundly inspired in his writings by the Bible. Tolkein’s Lord of the Rings and Hobbit are among the greatest literary works in history and they too are inspired by Tolkein’s passion for God’s Word. Not to mention “The Chronicles of Narnia”, read by millions of children in classrooms around the country. Why not allow high school students the opportunity to read the source text and inspiration for these works and to study it so that they might gain a deeper understanding of the works? I wonder what you are so afraid of. Is there such a thing as too much knowledge?
Evan,
I take great umbrage at your proclaiming Tolkiens works on par with the other masters. Time will be the judge of that, not us, and Tolkien is still in the first inning.
At the end of the day any edumacation is a good thing, but you have to admit that to adopt this course given its focus on the bibles influence is a hot button and a slippery slope by definition. I am left wondering if it was brought for academic advancement or for the controversy factor?
Frank Knotts writes: “This is where I feel the wheels come off the bus. I do not believe that any human being can teach about the Bible without their personal beliefs coming into play. ”
Then how can anyone ever teach anything? You reject the concept of logic or professionalism.
My mother couldn’t stand mathematics, statistics, economics, and yet managed to teach those topics despite personally despising them.
My mother couldn’t swim, yet taught hundreds of both children and parents to swim.
Teaching literacy and non-ignorance of the Bible and Christianity has been long recognized by the Federal courts as a completely appropriate topic of education in the public schools, completely unrelated to the practice of religion or proselytization.
Persuading someone to become a Christian is a completely different animal from teaching awareness of the world around us.
You express the extreme hostility to religion that Chris Coons argued in the 2010 debates by trying to prevent children from the slightest awareness of the Bible, let they might be persuaded.
Awareness of the Bible and its role in history is proper. It could possibly lead to a completely different and separate process of a person deciding whether or not to believe what the Bible says for their persona lives.
But to promote ignorance of the world and world history simply to prevent someone from making their own personal, private choice is an extraordinary hostility to religion and is in fact tyranny, attempt to deprive other people of the freedom to make their own personal, private choice.
Why not study some the great literature which inspired the bible?
The Epic of Gilgamesh (2150-2000 BC), which gave us Sargon of Akkad whose birth story is remarkably similar to Moses’ and Utnapishtim and his family, who survived the Great Flood which was sent by the god Enil to destroy the world. Utnapishtim also had an ark on which he brought animals and even had a bird that discovered the presence of land.
Well there is a good reason why there is no energy to do such a thing; because the proposal is not really about literature. It is about taxpayer supported bible study.
Even so, I’ll tell you what, I am willing to support the proposal, if and only if, the proposal is amended to create an elective on the comparative study of religions or alternatively by creating an elective for each of the world’s major religions (Judaism, Catholicism, Christianity, Islam). I could be talked into eliminating Catholicism, but hey since Catholicism begat Christianity why not go right to the real source?
But I’m fairly certain those alternative proposals would not be acceptable, because the study of literature is not the actual objective. Unfortunately in your zeal, you fail to comprehend that if you open the door to one religion, you’ll be opening the door to them all. Can you imagine your children coming home and talking about the elective they chose? It won’t be the bible because they want something new and different, so why not Zoroastrianism?
Maybe bible study is best left to those who know it best. Would you want just anyone explaining the bible to your loved ones cause with the current proposal your gonna get an English Lit major not a pastor?
@WP, “I take great umbrage at your proclaiming Tolkiens works on par with the other masters”
I wouldn’t want to debate that because we would have to define what makes a master and a great work and I would probably advocate that Tolkien belongs up there with some of the best. He is one of my favorites.
Regardless, Evan’s argument about all those works which were influenced by the bible, are not (with the exception of Shakespeare and Melville) are not works which are typically studied in high school. Consequently the the bible’s influence on great literature would reference works the students, either never heard of, nor will have ever read.
@Evan “Children learned to read using the Bible (specifically the King James Version for any who might be confused as to WHICH version was used)”
I can assure you that this child did not learn to read using the KJ version. Nor did Jewish children learn to read usinig KJ. In fact, most of the Irish children who played a very large role in settling this country have never seen the KJ version nor would they ever touch such a book. Catholic books carry an nihil obstat and imprimatur issued by a Catholic authority. There are over 68 million Catholics in this nation; 23% of the adult population and the religion with the largest membership.
I’m not suggesting that Catholicism should have primacy. However, what I am asserting is that your religion and your book does not speak for my religion and my book.
@ Dave
I agree that a debate as to what constitutes a master would protract into… well I am not really sure. What I do know is that I have favorite authors that albiet well read, the jury is still out on wether they attain masters status down the road. I also agree that at the high school level the works that are read, I have no refrance for. The 80″s seem so far away now. lol
“studying Michelangelo’s “David”. The study of each of these deeply religious works is only enhanced by a knowledge of the work on which they are based”
I’m confused, I’m not sure how a nude dude ( hey it rhymes ) in marble without a fig leaf is a “,deeply religious work “worth study
Evan, if you are going to trash Frank about not knowing specific process, it really looks bad if you yourself don’t know that Michaelangelos”s ” David” is a marble sculpture, not a literary work.
Shakespeare’s hamlet for instance debates the wisdom of suicide, as does Romeo and Juliet…..Hamlet has a WONDERFUL LINE’ ” which he delivers to his mother ” rank in the sweat of and ensemend bed , honeying and making love”
Ummmmmm, just how will you explain that to children whose parents don’t like sex Ed…..
Of explain the dislike of Jews and money lenders in the Merchant of Venice….or maybe what PUCK symbolizes in a Mid summers nights’s dream…..
Mary Magdeline as a prostitute, or maybe Salomes’s dance for Herod? Is that hiw women get what they want from men? They use their body? And sexually tease and excite them?
How about Deliah and Sampson….she seduces him?
And rally, do y want to explain how in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah Lot offered the crowd his virgin daughters to,use as they would instead of molesting his guests that were strangers?
There is a lot of sex and violence in the Bible and if it was a movie, it would,be rated X. and you want this for high school kids but not sex Ed
Go ahead- I would love to hear you explain ONANISM…….. 🙂
Evan, if I recall you ran for the 11th district state senate seat which is located somewhere around Newark, DE.
I would like to know what a 9/12 Delaware Patriot from an hour and a half away was doing at a Cape School Board meeting. That school board should answer only to the people of the District, they work for the people who vote, pay taxes and entrust their children to schools in the District, not to people from outside special interest groups.
There are a number of people posting about this who are do not live in the district and do not have children in the Cape district schools.
Thank you Harry – maybe Evan should spend less time on the road and more time studying the bible himself…..especially this verse
Romans 13:7-8 ESV / 178 helpful votes
Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Psalm 37:21 ESV / 138 helpful votes
The wicked borrows but does not pay back, but the righteous is generous and gives;
Look him up in delaware court connect
Kinda live Vance and Bodie teaching the biblical precepts of chastity…….
Up, gotta love those upstanding Christians that teach us all to do as I say, but not as I do.
Here is the TRUTH about common core standards…..don’t let their OPINIONS get in the way of the FACTS
http://Www.corestandards.org
this is nothing but a political stunt. the concept was brought forward by board members who are not qualified to comment on the appropriateness of curriculum. this has zero chance of passing. they will not get four votes. cape is not western sussex. it should also be noted the minard in particular likes to talk about her constituents. the truth of the matter is that she refused to give the constituents a choice by changing areas during her election. it was certainly legal for her to do so, but she ran unopposed…… hardly a mandate…..
What was notorious thug Evan doing at a Cape School Board meeting? As a grandparent of children in the district, the association of people like Evan, Christy and Sandi Minard with this initiative makes it a complete non-starter. These are people who have proven to have ulterior motives in nearly every case, and whose judgement has been called into question multiple times. In addition, I was at the school board meeting and saw who stood in support of the course. People like the Young Life guy and others who seem to be more interested in getting kids exposed to the Bible than on increasing the kids’ intelligence and worldliness.
No thanks. Glad this one’s going in the circular file bin.
Holy shit! No pun intended.
Evan, did you actually read anything I wrote? I clearly stated that I did not see a separation issues here, I also said that the course was already being taught in other schools. What the hell are you talking about?
You are so locked into your talking points that you can’t have a conversation without falling back to your comfort zone. You attack me simply for opposing the instituting of this course, without recognizing why. You simply replay your angry rhetoric that doesn’t address my reasons for opposing this course. Go back and read the post and my comments and when you can form an argument that actually addresses what I have said, then we can have a debate on the issue. My concern is that the message of the Bible will be diminished by this course, and for me the message in the Bible is what is important, not that the Bible is in a public school, unlike some people who wish only to impose their views, much like the Taliban.
As for how the curriculum change was brought about, well I read and heard this reported from more than three media outlets and heard no one question the statement of Superintendent Fulton that it had not been done according to accepted procedure. But of course zealots don’t need procedures, do they?
Now I really don’t want this to turn into an argument about separation of church and state, since I already pointed out that the course is an elective and so I don’t see that as an issue, but I can’t let Evan re-write the Constitution either.
Evan says,
“not even the 1st Amendment includes the phrase “separation of church and state”. What is contained there are two statements on religion, the first saying that Congress may not establish a single religion as THE religion of the US and the second that FEDERAL Congress (this does not apply to the States, many of whom were established with STATE religions) may not infringe on the rights of others to practice theirs.”
Evan says that the 1st amendment says, “that Congress may not establish a single religion as THE religion of the US “, Evan, it seems to me that either you have a different version of the Constitution or you are adding quite a few words. It actually says that congress “shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion”, not that it has to be the official religion of the U.S. to keep them from establishing religion. They simply can’t create any religion.
Second, Evan says, “that FEDERAL Congress (this does not apply to the States, many of whom were established with STATE religions) may not infringe on the rights of others to practice theirs. ”
Here again Evan has decided to add a few words to make his argument seem relevant. The amendment does not use the word FEDERAL congress, it simply says congress. I have often had this argument with other zealots. In my opinion “congress” means any body of government that convenes to address the needs of the citizens, this would also include states. But even if it didn’t, then the 10th Amendment would bar states from establishing a state religion, since the U.S. Constitution already addresses that issue and states cannot over-ride the U.S. Constitution, but of course Evan already knows that.
Basically what I see from Evan is a lot of interpretation of the Constitution and not simply a straight reading of the text of the document(Evan I hope the use of the word straight doesn’t send you off on another rant), so I am surprised that Evan seems to hold to the notion that since there is no use of the actual word “separation” in the 1st amendment, then there was no intent on the part of the Founders to keep the two, government and religion, separate.
Evan here is the actual Amendment, in case you lost your abridged version,
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
So Evan, riddle me this Batman, if congress cannot “establish” or “prohibit” religion, what relationship is left between government and religion? Of course the Founders believed in separating the two, they left no other option.
If you are the faith based person you present yourself to be, then why would you want something as pure as faith to be sullied by interaction with something as dirty as government? Unless the goal is to impose your views upon others?
As I said above, if you want your children to attend a faith based school, then send them to one. But you have no standing either in law, or Christian doctrine to impose you beliefs upon others.
Let me say at the end for those who skim read, this course in my view is not a separation issue with me, it is a matter of having the message of the Bible diminished by having it taught strictly as a piece of literature and not as the one truth. Did you get that Evan?
anon you know nothing about me, you just buy into then the crap several posters spew. I too have children in the Cape School district. I have a right to offer up my opinion without you and others personally attacking me, my grandchildren and now my wife. If the comments here are the new right being offered up then it is beyond all hope.
I’m not associated with any initiative about this course I merely offered my opinion, just like you do.
I too was at the meeting as I am almost every month, I did not speak before the board which I have done numerous times. I have to question your motives and judgement. I also have to question the motives of someone from Tennessee posting in here.
James 4:11-12
Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
Proverbs 6: 16-19
These six things does the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart that devises wicked imaginations, feet that are swift in running to evil,
A false witness that speaks lies, and he that sows discord among brethren.
Thats what we need, political stunts in the school board. Being elected to the school board is the old school path to later going on to be a candidate. The differance is that imo your voter card should be checked at the door. The school board should be about the business of the school, I.E. fiscal responsability to the tax payers, balancing curriculum and extra activities, ensureing funding is spent to encourage the propogation of quality education, ect. Course offerings and the like should be brought by the educators themselves to fit what they see as improvements to the current offferings, NOT the board.
Mr. Knotts that is your interpretation of the first amendment.
If the founders truly intended for separation of church and state as you claim then explain the following contradictory examples, which contain the words GOD, LORD, Divine Creator, etc.
Look at the Articles of Confederation and you will find references to GOD the LORD and Jesus Christ.
Our currency used in the United States has IN GOD WE TRUST printed or stamped on it.
Our Military Oaths contain SO HELP ME GOD.
The Vice President Oath also contains SO HELP ME GOD.
Look at Delaware’s own Constitution as it was originally written by the founders of our state:
The Delaware constitution of 1776 established a Godly State by requiring, in Art. 22: Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust . . . shall . . . make and subscribe the following declaration, to wit: “I ________, do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, Blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scripture of the Old and New Testaments to be given by divine inspiration.” Delaware Constitution, Art. 22 (adopted Sept. 20, 1776), 1 Del. Code Ann. 117 (Michie, 1975). Commended by the U.S. Supreme Court in Rector, etc., of Holy Trinity Church v. U.S., 143 U.S. 457 at 469-70, 12 S.Ct. 511 at 516 (1892). The Constitutions of All the States According to the Latest Amendments, Lexington: Thomas T. Skillman, 1817, p. 181, cited in D. Barton, The Myth of Separation, 23 (6th ed., 1992).
In other words, only followers of Christ could hold any public office under the Delaware constitution. Delaware’s oath of office is called a “test oath.” It requires the one swearing to affirm – either explicitly or implicitly – a particular religious belief. This was the case in virtually all of the states, in varying degrees of doctrinal specificity. It was done because the Bible was understood to require it. Legislators used to insert Biblical references in the margins of the statute books to prove the validity of their laws (For an example, see John Cotton, “An Abstract of the Laws of New England, as they are Now Established, Printed in London in 1641,” Collection of the Massachusetts Historical Society (1798); reprint of 1835 in 2 The Journal of Christian Reconstruction 117, No. 2; Winter, 1975-76, “Symposium on Biblical Law”).
Pennsylvania Frame of Government, Section 10. And each member [of the legislature], before he takes his seat, shall make and subscribe the following declaration, viz: “I do believe in one God, the Creator and Governour of the universe, the rewarder of the good and the punisher of the wicked, and I do acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine Inspiration.” Sources and Documents Illustrating the American Revolution 1764-1788 and the Formation of the Federal Constitution, 166 (S. Morison, ed., 1923). Cited in Barton, Myth, p. 23.
Then this SCOTUS opinion on the matter:
In 1892, the U.S. Supreme Court announced with pride that the purpose of the Founders of this land was “the establishment of the Christian religion,” (Rector, etc., of Holy Trinity Church v. U.S, 143 U.S. 457 at 466, 12 S.Ct. 511 at 514, 36 L.Ed. 226 (1892)) and this ideal was universally held. The men who signed the Constitution understood the Biblical requirements, and they acted in terms of them. Governments were established to spread the Faith.
“Another equally acrimonious debate has raged from time to time over whether religious training belongs in public schools. My view is that it does–especially since our schools already teach students about the pseudo-religion of Marxism-Leninism. I do not share the views of some well-intentioned anti-Communists that students should not be exposed to courses on Marxism. While Marxists are atheists, Marxism is a religion. Students in a free society should be encouraged to learn about their own religious heritage without being prohibited from doing so because of the doctrine of separation of church and state. It is ludicrous to teach young people about the atheistic philosophy adhered to by our major adversaries in the world and yet be denied the opportunity to learn more about the spiritual precepts on which our own nation was founded.” -President Richard Nixon
The bible and religion belongs in church
Reading writing and ‘rithmatic belong in school
It’s that easy
Christy and Minard, and “I don’t pay
My bills” Quetsitch are just tying to shill the 9/12 agenda.
First it’s Agenda 21 and they show up for the wrong meeting at the library, and ruin another at 5 points
Now the school board…..
They have fast become a laughing stock.
Eastern sussex is a different animal and these fringe loonies won’t get far.
They can rant and rave all they want but this was first discussed in 2009
The boat has already sailed on this issue and their nashing of teeth and pulling of hair amounts to nothing more than:
” a tale told by and idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying, nothing”
There is nothing to see here folks, move along, Core Curriculum is here to stay
The Bible Literacy Project is a backdoor way for the 9/12 Delaware Patriots and the DFPC to get Christianity taught in our public schools. Sandi Minard, a member of both groups, is unfortunately a school board member in Cape, which is why we have to suffer her continual insanity. I remember when
Mrs.Miss Minard became involved in the school board, it was when her son failed out his senior year andMrs.Miss Minard blamed the school district for not informing her (8 report cards during the course of the year wasn’t enough notification). Does she even live in the District? My friends tell me she’s shacked up in Georgetown. Minard was also the school board member who pulled kids off of a bus because the bus driver was gay without the knowledge or approval of the rest of the board, which is in violation of the office.I don’t want a woman with no concept of family values, who failed to monitor her own child’s education, making decisions for my children’s education.
Evan doesn’t live anywhere in the District but I hear he’s a stellar parent. **eyeroll**
If Bill Christy has grandchildren in the District it’s their parents who should be attending the meeting, not you. Or is Laffer telling the truth and you raised a child that isn’t fit to raise children of their own? Sure, I really want you making decisions for my child.
These 3 dysfunctional members of a fringe political group should not be making decisions for anyone’s children.
Marxism is not a religion, psuedo or otherwise. If that were the case, we could assert that all of your beliefs are a religion regardless of whether they relate to a supreme being.
The fact that we as a nation are religious or that we talk about God or reference God or have mottos associated with God does not mean that any religion is practiced, sanctioned, or governs the functioning of our nation.
You can keep trotting out that narrative that there is no separation of religion and state all you want to. Most Americans believe and accept that. You are in the minority (or rather the fringe) and the majority does not accept those fringe beliefs you share.
If you want your children to learn about their religion, I suggest you complete their education in the home or send them to a private Christian school. I do not want my children exposed to your beliefs (which technically can’t happen since mine graduated college some time ago but my point remains the same). You don’t get to determine whether my children get “religious training.”
Not only do I want you to stay out of my bedroom, I also want you to stay the hell out of my spiritual life. If I need a priest, I know where to find one.
Quit trotting out the tired refrain that just because we recognize God does not mean we have any specific religious practices
Laffter I’m not trying to shill anything I did not speak up on the issue of this topic.
I did speak up against Common Core and I will continue to do so, it’s nothing more than the Federal government sticking their nose where it doesn’t belong. Anyone that thinks English and Math are all that’s needed to be successful in today’s world is a damn fool.
If religion doesn’t belong in school neither does any matter concerning a child’s sexual identity or issues concerning same sex marriage which are both part of Common Core.
I don’t need to have my children reading a book entitled “It’s Perfectly Normal” found in our school and local libraries that’s geared at children as young as 10 with illustrations of young naked girls and boys naked. If those illustrations were actual photos it would be x rated pornography plain and simple.
Common Core has already been implemented in Massachusetts. Part of Common Core forces schools to allow students who are males to claim they are females, and females to claim they are males. Teachers are mandated to call the student by whatever name the student chooses to use, not their birth name ie Robert calling himself Roberta or Michelle calling herself Michael.
It always amazes me the people who scream the loudest are the ones forcing everyone to accept their social beliefs and values, no matter how immoral they are.
Dave then you better take a good look at common core then. A book called It’s Perfectly Normal geared at 10 year old and up children is already in our public and school libraries. The illustrations found in it would be classified as child pornography if they were actual photographs. It teaches it’s okay to claim you are a girl even if you were born a boy and a boy if you were born a girl. Schools will be forced to call students who claim gender identity by the name they choose, ie Robert will be Roberta Michelle will be Michael. It also teaches that same sex relationships are okay. So while you don’t want religion in schools I don’t want my children exposed to decaying social values.
waterpirate if you don’t think politics plays a major role in school district decisions then you are either intellectually stymied or don’t have a clue about how school districts truly operate.
“Minard was also the school board member who pulled kids off of a bus ”
And if my child had been on that bus, my attorney would have gotten a speed dial phone call and a suit file against both the school district and Minard for endangering my child. The only people who are in authority over my children would have been the bus driver and the school administration.
There would have been a great deal of money flowing into my savings account. Fortunately, for the taxpayers and Ms. Minard, I have no children in the school. I would have also asked for a criminal investigation by the DSP.
And how could she not know her son was doing poorly? Perhaps Cape should have a course in parenting skills. Regardless, I have noticed that those who opine the loudest about personal responsibility are often the ones who have so little of it. I suppose I am fortunate that I am not in the position of having to raise my children’s children.
Once again Mr. Christy takes a trip back into history to a time that suits his agenda and selects it as the perfect time, much in the same way he does with the sheriff issue. He has quoted above, two documents that were both over turned. The Articles of Confederation were replaced by our current Constitution, you know the one that we are governed by and which Mr. Christy is a member of the Oath Keepers to protect, that is unless the Constitution does not serve his purpose, then he just gets in his little time machine and goes back to the previous document. Way to protect the Constitution Mr. Christy. You know, the one that makes no mention of God or Christ.
Then he also mentions the Delaware Constitution of 1776, again a document that was over turned, again because that one serves his needs.
Mr. Christy if you are going to argue the law, you have to base your arguments on current laws, not just the ones you wish were the law.
The more you talk about “test oaths”, the more it sounds like loyalty oaths, which sounds a lot like communist and NAZI tactics, no wonder you like the idea of a gag order from the GOP. I may have been mistaken all this time thinking you were just your run of the mill right wing extremist, maybe you are actually a totalitarian activist.
I love when people quote SCOTUS decisions as if that is the end all, again when it favors their agenda, tell me Mr. Christy, how did you like the SCOTUS decision of Obama Care? Is that the end all on the issue?
Mr. Christy continues his streak of absurdity with this statement,
” “Another equally acrimonious debate has raged from time to time over whether religious training belongs in public schools. My view is that it does–especially since our schools already teach students about the pseudo-religion of Marxism-Leninism.”
So whose religion? Judaism? Christianity? Wiccan? Islam? Buddhist? Which is it Mr. Christy? Oh! sure today it may be Christianity, but what about tomorrow? You will have set the precedent of allowing the mingling of faith and government, and once you open that very dangerous door it can never be closed. You protect your own freedoms best by protecting those of others. Meaning, do not impose your faith upon others and they will have no standing to impose upon you.
I say again, if you want your child to learn faith in school, then send them to a faith based school, and work to allow your tax dollars to be used for that school instead of forcing others to pay for the faith teaching you want your child to have.
One also has to wonder, do the people who push so hard for the Bible in public schools actually spend anytime discussing faith with their children at home? Or is this another case of lazy people wanting the government to deal with their children, sort of like those who want sex education in school, but who never talk to their own kids about it.
“you better take a good look at common core then”
Ok, I did. I examined both the national and the Delaware common core websites. Neither in the standards or the content aspects of the common core standards are there any references that pertain to gender, gender identity, etc. If can provide a link to the common core standards (state or national) that provides some evidence of what you are saying, I would appreciate it.
On the Delaware common core website, there are 4 identified content areas. Science, Math, Social Studies, World Language and Fine Arts. I examined the standards for Social Studies and Fine Arts because they were the most likely areas where gender identity (or rather anything dealinig with sex) would be found. I discovered no trace. So I am at a loss as to how and where the common core standards are promulgating anything gender or sex related, deviant or otherwise.
Reading this thread is like reading Delaware Liberal.
Mr. Christy, as I have said, the way to stop C C is to refuse to take state and federal funding and fund locally. Not hard, but not as sexy as ranting about C C either. Conspiracy, conspiracy!!!
If you don’t like the public school system then pull your children out. Work to allow your tax dollars, i.e. vouchers to be used as and where you see fit for the education of your children, rather than expending all this energy to force others to behave how you see fit. Don’t you see that you are attempting to do exactly what you are condemning others of, forcing their point of view on you.
Also, if you are allowing the public school system to be the last word on anything in your child’s life, then you are failing to be a parent, IMO! Parents must be ever involved in their child’s life. I would no more ignore what a school is teaching without discussing it with my child then I would allow that child to watch TV unsupervised at a young age, or to have unlimited access to the internet. Being a parent is more than giving birth, it is the hardest thing you will ever do. To blame schools or TV or the web for the problems your children have, is a cop-out.
Thank you Angus. I have always thought that at D L they allow you to have your say, even when they disagree with you, unlike other blogs that fear honest debate, and where they have to replace the delete buttons on the keyboard every month.
Ever hear of RIF?
My point is that politics does not belong in the school board. The board should be made up of selfless people whose primary concern are the issues I listed. We should elect people who check there personal crusades and politics at the door. It is the self important and absorbed who seek to pervert the education of our villages children by bringing politics to the school board.
Bill Christy already failed as a parent- his kids ain’t reading much and certainly not Good Parenting Magazine
Christy has custody ( as he has openly stated) of his GRANDCHILDREN as they were removed from their biological parents as he claimed due to abuse and neglect and drug use- all of this openly and publically claimed by Christy.
And his wife works in the district
Maybe if he spent more time parenting his kid he would not now be parenting his grandchildren.
And I certainly do not want someone like this making decisions for my children- he open carries a weapon in Jimmies Grill at BREAKFAST for Pete’s sake…..that alone makes me question his stability and mental acuity.
As for Minard pulling the kids off the bus- yeah, my attorney would have had a call on that one too.
It’s all a moot point anyway………the curriculum is here to stay
I provided the link…I don’t see anything about gender identity no matter how the history revisionist tries to spin it.
WP, while I may agree with you about keeping politics out of the boards, won’t be easy to put that genie back in the bottle, since the board positions have in many cases become the first stepping stone for some to higher office. The school boards are extremely important because they determine the amount of taxes you will pay in that district by their choices. Another reason it is so sad the low turn out for those elections.
The tactics never change. And when we NOTICE the pattern and discount each individual attack, THEN the lefties really start screaming because we’ve caught them red-handed
I am curious as to whether anyone has actually read the CC standards. I have considerable experiences in setting standards in a non-education environment and from what I read at both the national and state website these standards look exactly like what I would expect a standard to be in context of a performance standard and degree of compentency.
It may be that there is concern regarding the curricullum that implements those standards, but there doesn’t appear to be anything subversive in the standard itself, unless there is an Alex Jones paradigm at work where Common Core = Agenda 21 = Communism = Gays checking out my junk.
Dave May 25, 2013 writes: “Ok, I did. I examined both the national and the Delaware common core websites. Neither in the standards or the content aspects of the common core standards are there any references that pertain to gender, gender identity, etc.”
You think that would be on the website? Are you naïve or do you think we are naïve?
Dave, Richard Nixon never put out a press release saying that he was targeting enemies with the IRS. So therefore he wasn’t doing that, was he?
Dave, please can we keep talk of your “junk” to a minimum?
And Mr. Mosely, do you buy your tin foil in bulk?
Laffter May 25, 2013 writes: “The bible and religion belongs in church. Reading writing and ‘rithmatic belong in school. It’s that easy”
Wrong. Education on the world around us belongs in school. A graduate will be a complete ignoramus if they do not know the Bible and its role in human history.
Laffter, most Ivy League universities were founded to train religious leaders in Christianity.
Reading was taught by the Bible. The entire country learned to read by reading the Bible.
And the Bible belongs anywhere in society a free citizen chooses to read it, quote it, discuss it, or preach it.
Your alternative is tyranny.
Dave May 25, 2013 writes “I am curious as to whether anyone has actually read the CC standards.”
Yes, whereas you, Dave, are willfully ignorant, there is massive study, in detail of the Common Core standards and programs, which you are wholly ignoring.
There is a massive undertaking to rigorously study in detail every aspect of Common Core and expose what is in it — though not in the brochure.
You see, Dave, there are people like you who pretend to be driven by facts.
Then there are people who are actually driven by facts, who actually do their home work, and study things in precise detail.
While you, Dave, are sitting there doubting “I wonder if anyone studied this in detail” others are DOING what you are only talking about.
But the Boards of Education and State Departments of Education did NOT. They rushed it through without inquiry.
That’s the whole point.
waterpirate May 25, 2013 writes: “My point is that politics does not belong in the school board. The board should be made up of selfless people whose primary concern are the issues I listed”
And how will you enforce this desire of yours?
If a member of the School Board is duly elected, how will you FORCE them to conform to your chosen standard of behavior?
Do you see how quickly utopian ideals degenerate into tyranny?
If a School Board member believes that certain issues are important, and you think the Board member should be doing something else instead, what happens then?
You vote them out at the next election.
Or just continue to defame them in delawareright.
Dave while you’ve read the website on common core have you even bothered to read any sites that contradict or disprove what common core claims it is?
http://stopcommoncore.com/
The biggest myth in CC claim is all students are college material and will be prepared for college. The ONLY CC curriculum is English and Math…… NOT world languages, science, history, etc.
I was present at the Cape district meeting when the DE Secretary of Education did his presentation on Common Core. The ONLY subjects that are core subjects, are English and Math just like they are now. This is just a new spin on the No Child left Behind Act (which in reality was all children left behind) which couldn’t pass the muster when it came up for renewal. The Race to the Top program was implemented to reel the states in and force them to get on board with CC , since they had accepted the federal funding that came with Race to the Top.
Mr. Christy says, “since they had accepted the federal funding that came with Race to the Top.” Okay, half way there, now refuse the federal money, and no more CC.
Wow Frank really???? I knew that long before I moved to Delaware. Just remember the flip side of refusing federal funding higher state and local taxes, to make up for the federal shortfall.
By the way hotshot you stated that Our founding fathers never intended Church and state to be intermingled.
The references I posted proved that in fact they did have that intention, including here in Delaware.
Your claim our forefathers words in the original Constitutions were changed is irrelevant. Your statement referenced the intent of the forefathers who wrote the documents that established our original governments not the amended ones.
Ever wonder why US Currency doesn’t say “IN GOVERNMENT WE TRUST”
Ok Frank and Dave – I have a question for you all
If people like Christy hate it here so much and don’t like what we do
Why doesn’t he and people like him just LEAVE?
Pack your crap and go!
Make some other state the crap hole you originally left to come here
Thanks – bye
So Mr. Christy, you make a lot of big talk about getting the federal government out of our local lives, but like every other big talker you don’t have the guts to cut the purse strings they use to hang us.
Now can you figure out the real benefit to refusing the state and federal funding and yes paying the higher local taxes? Come on big talk you know this one, I have heard you mouth the words, but obviously you don’t mean them. We get local control!!! WOW! Isn’t that what you and your fellow travelers are always screaming for?
But no, you like every other poser, only talk, you are hooked on the federal funds just like everyone else.
By the way, just in case this one slipped by you while you were so busy studying CC. All those federal tax dollars that come back to the state? First had to leave the state, and we only get back something like thirty cents on the dollar taken.
Imagine how much we could save if we only taxed the amount we actually needed at the local level.
Also how long would people be willing to pay those higher federal tax rates if they weren’t using the money taken.
That’s how you change people’s minds, not by running around screaming , CONSPIRACY! CONSPIRACY!
Laffter, the answer is that they don’t leave until they have ruined the place they are in and then move on to ruin another with their fake conservatism. Just look at Mr. Christy’s response to refusing federal funding. He thinks I am a RINO, I think he is a NARC,(NOT A REAL CONSERVATIVE) They are like locus!
Bill, I took a quick look at the stopcommoncore site and could not find where they articulated any beef with the actual standards. Mostly it seemed to be about control. If someone sets standards they are in control kind of thing. I read the actual standards and as performance standards go, they are pretty decent.
You and those folks are more worried about the control aspect AND I might add that I found nothing that that suggests a “federal governments indoctrination plan” or “a child’s sexual identity or issues concerning same sex marriage which are both part of Common Core.” as you stated. In fact, you just finished contradicting yourself when you said “The ONLY CC curriculum is English and Math”
In the final analysis, you apparently have a beef about CC but I have yet to see you articulate that beef or to provide any facts that validate your objections. Stopcommoncore spent considerable space decrying who created the standards and nothing regarding whether the standards were valid and acceptable. I mean who gives a rats ass who created the standards as long as the standards reflect the level of performance we as parents can expect? Sheesh.
I have no clue if common core is a key element in improving educational outcomes. But you know something? Neither do you. What I try to do is to stick to my core competencies and although I have experience in both developing standards and instructional system design, I have to rely to some extent on those who have experience in fundamental education for children. It seems your interest is primarily in conspiratorial aspects of common core not in the value (or not) of the actual standards. That’s proabably good since it is not in your wheel house either. The difference between you and I is I don’t overturn every rock to see if there are communists or gays underneath.
Dave I too have been reading more about CC, and where Mr. Christy stated above, “The biggest myth in CC claim is all students are college material and will be prepared for college. ” I have read the words, “college and career standards”.
Now Mr. Christy, please do not read this as me supporting CC, but simply stating truth instead of rhetoric will get you further. I am as of now unsure whether I would support CC or not, but you do not help your case by passing along half truths about CC’s statements. If you will misrepresent the actual statements that are made, how can anyone trust your opinion of CC. Just saying.
In case you have lost track Mr. Christy, this is where you call me a liberal.
The Tea Party and the 9/12 Patriots taking up the anti-Common Core cause is the #1 asset the Common Core people have going for them. Because most of the local, state and national population know that those groups have lost their credibility. The people they bring in to repeat talking points provided to them by national malcontent groups are simply not versed in policy nor are they all that impressive in their arguments, most of which have giant holes in them.
I talked to one anti-CC Republican today who was incensed to learn that the TP groups were going after CC. “That’ll absolutely screw any chance we have of stopping CC,” the person said. “We’re toast.”
Christy is every Alex Jones and David Barton BS talking point rolled into one person. It’s scary, and not even worth debunking. Use the Googler.
Common Core is not a federal program. It was created by Governors and signed onto by individual states. So all the argument about federal funding and federal involvement is just not so. (Not that untruth ever gets in the way for people like Christy, Evan and Minard.)
Common Core is not the problem. The problem is the decreased flexibility provided to schools at the local level, combined with the large decrease in funding schools are going to see over the next five years as ARRA and RTTT expire. Schools will be expected to pay more, but have less control. That said, so long as board members of questionable character and motives continue pushing changes that are equally questionable, it’ll be harder to argue for more local control.
my vote goes for mindard to be president of the board. then she can demonstrate her true leadership skills. as far as politics go she is not very good on her feet. she can regurgitate talking points although she is not very deft at adding emphasis. she read a resolution (which she claimed she wrote) and misread a number of the words contained in the resolution. kind of comical really. just over 600 people turned out for the last school board election. again as i have said before these faux conservatives are “tilting at windmills”
Actually, Common Core could be a boon for Republicans. I’ve already given congratulations to the tea party for making a Lexington-characteristic first stand against it last Thursday.
The Democrats have a hard time stepping up against it. Obama is driving it from the top. Markell is driving it from the state level. But once past the state level, no one likes it. School principals privately don’t like it; teachers privately don’t like it; and parents as they see what their children are doing for homework, are beginning to go public that they don’t like it.
Seriously! If it was a good program, they would have hearings galore around the state, as they did with Blue Water Wind in order to get exposure and to toot their own horns. But no they did the exact opposite. They slipped SB51 through in the dead of night (figuratively; actually in 10 working days, only 4 of which the public knew about.) The only push back came on the House Floor, but the chair killed it with a call for a voice vote on an amendment that would have strengthened the bill. This behavior pattern is what one does with bad bills; bills one doesn’t want the public to see until it is fait accompli. The House and Senate hearings were strictly controlled; no one with opposing views was let in the door. In the end, all but 4 legislators voted for it, and as mentioned above, the only opposition came on the floor of the House.
Dave. Reading the standards is good and I praise your effort. I don’t have an issue with the standards either, they are high and mighty…. The problem is the test. It is made up by workers from part time temporary agencies, often marked with the wrong answers which no one checks for accuracy, which are then graded by machine. The essay parts are graded by temps as well, 5 handwritten paragraphs supposedly read, absorbed, and graded in under 20 seconds, by mostly those who are unemployed , on assistance, or between jobs…
This test is bogus, to use a word from our ancient past. Now whatever the curriculum itself says is irrelevant. Why? Because there is no citizen feedback back up the ladder to the test maker. The test is what controls the curriculum . Because the test dominates what gets taught, any committee meetings to change the curriculum are superficial. The stakes are way too high for those administering the tests to not make them the focus of the entire school year, beginning to end.. For if students fail, the teacher fails, the principal fails, and the district fails. Human nature dictates to all of us, that if you are going to get hurt because someone’s child doesn’t pass the test, you are going to teach them the test no matter what anyone else says or thinks. In practice, our curriculum became the test.
Even that still would be fine if we were sure the teachers, principals, and school districts were all horrible because the tests were actually telling us the truth. 8000 Minnesota seniors didn’t get their rightful diploma’s in at their graduation, because of test error. The error was found, and corrected and the company fined 11 million. Each day as we learn more about this brand new, never-tested-program called Common Core, the veracity of these tests on which all depends, is questionable. The test cannot tell us if a child learned to standard or did not. The problem is these tests were not designed to do that. These tests are not straight forward yes or know questions; they are very tricky. Adults fail miserably when given these same tests. In fact a student has a better score if he randomly picks answers than if he tries to apply his own knowledge to the question.
Moderate Republicans, if they can get out front on this issue and become the leaders, have a great opportunity to turn things around. I know many are ,as I write this, trying to spin Benghazi, the IRS, and the AP coverage into a bigger scandal than they really are.. Yet every single Delawarean Republican voted for SB 51, the biggest scandal our state has seen since the Indian River Inlet Bridge boondoggle.
With common core, the problem with it is the difference from what is being said at the top, and what is really going on at the bottom.
And I disagree with the friend above. The Tea Party gained stature when it stood up to Common Core. This issue is one that emotionally affects the inner core of every single parent of any school aged child…. it is the game-changer.
If anything can bring down the Democratic Juggernaut currently in place. this issue will.
Studying the bible as a history course doesn’t seem like such a bad idea, but the fact that Sandy Minard and Evan Quietch are involved makes me suspicious of the actual intent of this initiative. It seems political to me now.
Has anyone seen how much initial funding comes with adopting CC? Is this just another bait and switch from the feds? You know they offer the seed money, and then once the change is in place it will be up to the states to continue funding something that parents don’t even want?
We have to think of the feds as if they are crack dealers, the first hit is free, after that you pay. Far too many of our state and local political leaders are hooked on the federal crack money. Cold turkey is the only answer.
As for whether this fight will be a good thing for the GOP? And how the TEA movement’s involvement will affect the outcome?
On a national level the TEA movement seems a little less fringe, this is why they had more success in 2010, than the TEA movement here in Delaware in 2010. Delaware’s TEA movement trends more toward the fringe and to focus on the social issues. The Delaware face of the TEA tends to be people who have no patience with opposing view points and no idea of how to compromise in order to move the ball down the field. They are angry, and single minded. They tell people if you don’t like it leave. They segregate themselves into smaller and smaller sub groups, that lends itself only to weaken their efforts. They are perceived by the majority of the citizenry to be fringe and radical, and they wear this as a badge of honor, not understanding that it serves only to shrink their influence on the political stage. This too they wear as a badge of honor. I actually heard one of their heroes say once, “I must be right, everyone is against me”. They revel in their victim status, they call themselves “outsiders”, even after they have become a part of the party and hold positions within the county and state committees.
All of this means that anytime the Delaware TEA takes up an issue, the majority of the citizens tend to distrust their views.
So, here in Delaware the fact that the TEA have taken CC as a cause of merit, and since the TEA is most closely related to the GOP, the fight against CC will have a negative affect on the GOP. Much in the same way people began rolling their eyes every time they heard Agenda 21.
@Kavips.
The test is indeed where the difficulty lies. It is relatively easy to arrive at performance standards that all can accept. The problem is all such performance standards must be independently measurable (testable). It may be that the testing aspect is not as well structured or thought out.
When creating performance standards, we strive to create both the quantitative and qualitative measures by which performance against a standard can be determined. Some standards do not lend them selves to quantitative measures and we have to use qualitative measures.
While measurable standards are what we strive for, the fact that we have a standard that is difficult to measure does not mean the standard is inappropriate or unacceptasble. Common core standards seem to be acceptable standards. If testing is an issue, why shouldn’t we fix testing.
You are the only one thus far who has had anything concrete to say about the standards that pertains to the actual standards. Others seem to be focused on CC as a means to control education (which is not even the intent).
Finally, framed on the wall of Albert Einsteins Princeton lab was the following quote:
Not everything that counts, can be counted
Not everything that can be counted, counts
CC may not be the be all end all, but it’s also not communism, Agenda 21, or a constitutional crisis as the Minards, 9-12 ers, et al make it out to be. Sort of reminds me back when we used to see a communist around every corner. Those must be the good ol days they all keep harping about.
Mr. Identity Thief, you went to a Cape School Board meeting and you have no children in the District. You have no business there.
You’re probably one of those seniors who exempts themselves from the school tax, too, aren’t you?
Mr. Knotts I was at the presentation at Cape Henlopen district given by the Delaware Secretary of Education, you weren’t. I doubt you have been to any presentation of Common Core given by the DE Secretary of Education for that matter. The power point presentation and the speech given by the Secretary clearly stated “all students will be prepared to enter college upon graduation”. That’s not rhetoric that’s what was clearly stated.
So again I state not all students are college material, our secondary schools are severely lacking in teaching students trade skills like welding, drafting, carpentry, plumbing, machinist, etc.
In order to be competitive in the ever growing global economy, and workplace a second language is no longer an option it is a necessity. World languages is not even part of Common Core, currently there is no standardized testing for any foreign language nor is there going to be any under Common Core.
People claim Common Core is so great ask teachers what they think. You’ll soon find out the concept isn’t what is actually being implemented in the schools and there isn’t a damn thing that can be done after it’s in place.
Mr. Christy/Identity Thief, I asked you a very straight forward question: Are you one of the many Delaware seniors who exempts themselves from the school tax?
Yes or no?
I will ask the question again:
Mr. Christy, are you one of the many Delaware seniors who exempts themselves from the school tax?
Christy is an uninformed jerk blowhard who does only damage to the Republican Party.
But printing the man’s home address and tax record is bush league crap. If this were my blog, I’d delete that post and ban the poster forever.
I’m sure Mr. Christy would have offered up the information in good time, tax record searches weren’t necessary.
I have edited the comment above, though the information is public record and requires no special privilege to access it.
Removed by Frank Knotts
I have been asked by the management to remove the public tax records of Mr. William Christy from the comment thread, I have also removed a second comment that has no relevance to the conversation.
I received an angry phone call at my home from William Christy threatening me with both legal and bodily harm.
While I fear neither, I want to make it known publically that William Christy has threatened me.
I would also suggest to all who come here, know that you come here by your own free will, this includes Mr. Christy. Mr. Christy, if you can’t play in your big boy pants and you have to call my home and cry and whine because the other children are picking on you, then stay the hell off the playground, no body forces you to come here, and believe me you are such an insignificant piece of crap that we would not talk about you if you didn’t come here and open that empty pie hole that is connected to your empty pointed head.
And sir don’t you ever, ever call my home again, or I will have you arrested for harassment.
In the sense of fairness, here is a link to the exact same site that Mr. Christy was whining like a little baby about. Only this time it is my own personal Sussex tax records. This is all public record and only requires putting in the persons name and zip code, not hard to find and not private information. I have nothing to hide or to be ashamed of, I wonder why this was such an issue for Mr. Christy?
http://sussexcountyde.gov/e-service/propertytaxes/taxsearch/detail.cfm?&p_dist=131&p_map=1200&p_parcel=000608&p_unit=
District-Map-Parcel:
1-31 12.00 6.08
Owner(s) Names
KNOTTS , FRANK
Property Address
S/RD 567
LOT 4
Billing Address
2910 McDowell Rd.
BRIDGEVILLE , DE 19933
Land Use
Residential, Single dwelling & lot
Zoning
Agricultural/Residential
Town/Municipality
-No Town or Municipality Specified-
Fire District(s)
Bridgeville Fire District
Tax Ditch(es)
Brights Branch
Sewer/Water District
-No Sewer Records-
The Assessed value of the property reflects 50% of the 1974 Appraised Value and this is what your taxes are calculated on.
Land Value:
$3,200.00
Improvement(s) Value:
$38,300.00
Total Value:
$41,500.00
Total Assessed Value:
$20,750.00
2012 Annual Bill $938.78 Paid
2011 Annual Bill $894.29 Paid
2010 Annual Bill $857.11 Paid
2009 Annual Bill $858.15 Paid
2008 Supplemental Bill 1 $572.80 Paid
2008 Annual Bill $92.45 Paid
2007 Annual Bill $63.62 Paid
Recorded Date:
5/16/07
Amount of Sale:
$60,000.00
Number of Parcels Sold:
0
Land Appraisal:
$3,200.00
——————————————————————————–
Recorded Date:
4/1/08
Amount of Sale:
$255,900.00
Number of Parcels Sold:
1
Land Appraisal:
$3,200.00
LOT 4
Deed Book:
3563
Deed Book Page:
141
Watershed:
NANTICOKE
So as you can all see my taxes are paid up to date, and I have nothing to hide. This is not guarded information, it is available with the simplest of searches.
Only someone with something to hide would be upset by this being posted.
This is GREAT STUFF. Takes time to catch up but it’s so entertaining. What happened to the bible class discussion? I offered facts about the bible that should be a part of any bible class the shouldn’t be in public schools. If you want bible in school send them to a private Christian school.
First off congrats to Mr. Knotts as he now has Moseley taking up space that I won’t read. Such drivel from a lawyer without clients (how can he have clients because of the time he spends being on these sites?) that reading his stuff is a waste of time.
Mr. Knotts edits out comments before I could read them. Oh well…maybe this isn’t the free for all sans vulgarities I thought it was intended. Interesting turn of events.
That Mr. Knotts got a threatening call from Christy isn’t surprising. Quite the cowardly act on little Willy’s part but that’s not surprising when you consider he refuses to prove anything that so many call him out on responding only to what he wants to. He steals identities and has so many aliases that how he can work as the bounty hunter he says he is boggles my mind. Tells a lie and refuses to back it up. He’s entertaining! Bottom of the barrel entertainment but that’s why Jerry Springer is still going after 21 years!
Angus Berger write eight words and not one lie? What’s up with that?
Back to the main topic now. Why have a bible class in public schools? Isn’t that what churches have Sunday School for? I’m sure there are other Bodie and Phillips types dying to teach school age kids all about how they view the bible. How is the selection of the teacher made. What are the qualifications? Just a bunch of political hocus pocus. Be careful what you ask for folks as the next one to fall may well be the ‘teacher’ of a bible study group.
If it just has to be taught in public schools as an elective course it should be done in a manner that looks at the collection of books that it is. ANY interpretations of its writings should be done by parents not self proclaimed bible experts. Besides there are so many versions of the bible which one do they use? Who approves the selection?
If parents want kids to be educated on the bible they should take the kids to church on Sundays or send them to religious private schools. I’m not going to trust anyone that wants to teach a kid any version of the bible…too much weirdness going on with those right wing bible thumpers. Indictments and law suits seem to be the standard for them as time marches on.
I guess our freind did not fully comprehend the thought ” big brother publishes everyting in the interest of transparancy and public record “. I wonder if he knows about google earth and the street view feature? The village knows where your hut is, what is the big deal?
In the immortal words of George Costanza, “We live in a society, people!”
As a Republican, I believe we deserve every opportunity to keep our financial and personal lives private unless we choose to become public servants.
When I asked Mr. Christy about whether or not he exempts himself from the school portion of his taxes, I knew full well that I could look it up.
I chose not to.
Even though he is an ED and never shuts the heck up about the Sheriff, he uses his real name (except when he is using mine), and should be afforded the same benefits as a commenter that uses an alias.
That’s all I got to say about it, and I started it.
Those who act like tough guys cry the loudest when the get punch in the nose, and that is all I have to say about it. Okay maybe just one more thing, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
Knotthead your voice on the recording “anytime any place you want to throw down you fat overweight f**k” that is a threat. You were advised not theatened with legal action. False light statements fall under the United States privacy laws. It doesn’t matter whether or not the information is public, Christy’s wife is also on the records that were posted and she has a right to be left alone. The act of invasion of privacy, a tort based in common law allowing an aggrieved party to bring a lawsuit against an individual who unlawfully intrudes into his or her affairs, discloses his or her information, publicizes him or her in a false light. The essence of the law derives from a right to privacy, defined broadly as “the right to be let alone”. Christy tried to explain this to you that is also on the recording you refused to listen (nothing new for you). fine Christy can be heard telling you “Frank I’ll just contact the authorities and let them make the decision of whether any criminal laws have been broken”. You uttered another threat and Christy can be heard hanging the phone up on you. You posted another false light statement;
“Only someone with something to hide would be upset by this being posted.” Christys wife is a teacher she has nothing to do with your vendetta against Christy she has a right to her privacy period, your statement above casts her in false light since the property is jointly owned.
Angus – you might want to look back on all the blogs Christy has posted on
1. Reporting someone has posted and that the ISP was captured as a state address and threatening to turn that in
2. False light? How about saying my mother should have kept a tighter grip on the aspirin……etc
3. How about his false statements that he is a LEO?
4. How about the phone calls made , the emails sent and FB messages.
5. Creating false FB accounts to post to people on?
Neither you not Christy has clean hands in this. And unless you have clean hands any action you threaten is just that a threat
Christy has threatened legal action so many times its simply chatter. Either do it, or shut up about it. He chooses to come here and poke at people. Well, folks hit back, tough
Then stay out.
But…….I caution you, as we say in the trade, go heavy, or go home. christy can’t afford the heat, his new Hapmshire past will haunt him, and the legal standard of proving damages will have to be met
By public information being posted here how was anyone harmed, the truth is an absolute defense and unless county records are lying , those records are TRUE, ACCURATE AND PUBLIC.
so, please, enumerate the harm, or go pay someone a retainer……but be prepared for the amazing process of DISCOVERY AND SUPOENAS…..you will not like it. 🙂
“False light statements ”
Oh B effing S.
I can’t believe someone would actually bring up a something like that which will never happen. Even with an abundance of ambulence chasers, it wouldn’t happen. Stop being silly. That’s reserved for Jon Mosley.
Angus’ entire comment is a load of crap. One thing I do know to be against the law, though, is recording a phone conversation without permission and then disclosing the contents of that conversation, audio or text. So it sounds like someone has an actionable claim. Just not Christy.
Wrong- actually NEVER to defend Angus coz he is full of crap BUT
Delaware is a one party consent state – that’s means if two people are talking and one person who is party to tue conversation- on of the conversants – chooses to record it, they do not have to disclose that fact they are recording it
And they are free to share it as well. But I would be very judicious in how that is used.
Remember- if either side recorded it- and they were actually part of the conversation- not an non- participant outsider- it’s legal to record and share it- as technically , it is their property.
Linda like posting public information that does not defe nor dage anyon
On top of that DELAWARE LAW says False Lifht actionsust he part of a defamation suit
Where so these dime store lawyers come from? Took my Cracker Jack boxes many be?
As for recording me without my knowledge and without a warrant? Well it may be actionable on my part and most likely not admissible in court.
As for any comment about bringing it on, well that would be self defense if he were to “bring it on”.
As for the common sense of you bringing this topic up again, well doesn’t that mean that you are now an accomplice in casting the false light.
By the way, I have been threated with that piece of legal jargon in the past, and knowing Mr. Christy’s circle of friends, I am pretty sure who put him up to it.
Lastly I did not post the comment that included the public records that any person with half a brain can obtain, secondly after his call I consulted another member of the management of DR and then removed the information, though left to my own, I would have left it up just to hear the crying and whining.
Also, I believe there was a “Mother” between overweight and F**K.
One more item here, by Mr. Christy coming to this site and commenting of his own free will and interacting with myself and the other commentators here, he has created a relationship with the site, much in the way a person who buys a product from a company creates a relationship, said relationship means that the company cannot be blocked by the do not call list because the consumer created the relationship.
Mr. Christy was not solicited to come here, he came here and made use of the product produced here, he opens himself up to that product by coming here.
But if he feels the need to act like a child then he is free to do this.
Oh by the way Angus, aren’t you now casting me in a false light by spreading these rumors? And isn’t Mr. Christy casting me in a false light spreading his lies? Careful where you walk, there are land mines everywhere!
I believe private disclosure is legal, public disclosure is outlawed, but I could be wrong.
Anon- as to disclosure- you are wrong
Each party to the taped conversation owns it
And may do as they wish with it
BUT- they would be wise to be careful
False light is not a stand alone in DE- mist be part OF a defamation suit- and a defation suit must show actual damages- see Thomas Neunberg VA Tom Gordan , Sherrie freeberry and chris coons – perfect example
What damage does one suffer when publicaly available information on thebinternet is posted elsewhere on the Internet
If that was the case- every news story about Obama that is posted and reported would a an actionable tort claim- and most other media stories as well
Nope- ain’t gonna happen- just like no ethical attorney would take a case surrounding these comments – unless they were looking to hose their client …..
So keep yapping- coz that’s all it is – and not even intelligent yapping at that.
Tuxamus Maximus has a bucket of rocks that is smarter than Angus Berger and it doesn’t tell lies. The bucket of rocks just does its job…holding a cover down quietly without complaining. Angus just keeps digging his hole whining about it the whole time. Will someone please take his shovel away from him!