Is This Justice?

ferguson 4   ferguson  ferguson 2   ferguson 1

ferguson 3   I put this up to ask the question, no matter whether, or not you feel that the police shooting of Michael Brown was justified, or not. Is this justice for anyone?

 

67 Comments on "Is This Justice?"

  1. Pictures tell us nothing. They simply catch a split second in time and leave the viewer the task of making up the story behind the image.

    So do tell us the story, Frank. Is the person running out of the store a Ferguson protestor or a poor opportunist from a neighboring community taking advantage of the chaos and who really could care less about Michael Brown or Officer Darren Wilson? Are the people standing behind the shirtless guy shouting words of encouragement or yelling for the police or anyone to get the lunatic off the street? Is the shirtless guy an angry Ferguson resident demanding (rather flamboyantly) justice, an individual with mental health issues who may or may not be a resident of Ferguson, or a professional anarchist who jumps from protest to protest to incite discord? (Yes, there are “professional” protestors and anarchists, sometimes even hired by groups or companies, to disrupt legitimate protests. http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/393380/get-ready-super-bowl-outrage-ferguson-deroy-murdock ) Are all the sparks and fire in the street set by Ferguson protestors, Ferguson infiltrators, or the police to disperse crowds? And what about the last picture? Who set the fire and who is the person appearing to enjoy the show? Are the two in the picture the ones who set the fire or the peaceful protestors who tried to put the fire out before it grew to its monstrous proportions. They both do look exhausted.

  2. Frank Knotts says:

    FDR, the question is not about the photos as individual moments in time, it is to ask, is the chaos following the announcement justice for anyone? Is it justice for Michael Brown, or his family? Is it justice for the black community that feels “justified” in these actions?
    Do not look at the photos as individual snapshots, but as representing the situation as a whole.
    I will only address your first question, which I think will answer all of them. You ask, ” Is the person running out of the store a Ferguson protestor or a poor opportunist from a neighboring community taking advantage of the chaos and who really could care less about Michael Brown or Officer Darren Wilson?”
    I say does it matter? If the person is a “protester”, does stealing from a business within your community send a message to the police who you supposedly believe is the problem, is that justice? And if they are an opportunist, then the answer is even easier.
    Maybe the larger question is, why does this seem to be the response in so many of these types of cases, from Rodney King to Travon Martin, to Michael Brown?

  3. William Christy says:

    Clearly these people thing revenge is some form of justice. I see very little difference between their actions and the actions of gangs when one of their “members” is killed. More disturbing to me as well as indicative of the mindset of the Al Sharpton’s of society is a 12 year old black boy was shot and killed by police 3 days ago in Ohio. He was seen brandishing an airsoft pistol that had the red tip painted black, when police arrived he put it in the waist band of his pants. There is no out rage over this event, no riots or claims of racism. One can only reasonably speculate, it’s because reportedly the officer who shot and killed the boy is black too..

    These people in Ferguson want nothing more than revenge which never will be the same as justice..

  4. William Christy says:

    meant think not “thing” in the first sentence

  5. Uncle Jessie says:

    No justice, no peace is what they’re saying. It’s time to bring these criminals to justice.

  6. Yes, it does matter, Frank. The people have a right to protest whether one agrees with what they are protesting or not. You ask why this violence happens at every protest, yet you only cite recent examples, all involving civil rights protests. Why would you conveniently leave out the anti-war protests of the ’60’s or the White protests against desegregation of the ’50s and 60’s? How about the labor disputes of the White people around the turn of the last century?

    The people of Ferguson have a right to protest. It appears that many in the media focus on the violent aspect occurring as if they are attempting to discredit the protest altogether by painting the protestors as “violent thugs” just like the person they are protesting for was a “violent thug”. So, yes, it becomes important to know who is in the picture and why they are doing what they are doing else the “solution” may become one of limiting everyone’s first amendment rights regardless of how “right” one feels a protest is and how peaceful the majority n the protest behave.

  7. meatball says:

    Boston tea party?

  8. delacrat says:

    Frank,

    Would that you were as indignant over the murder of an unarmed American in broad daylight, in plain view of numerous witnesses, by someone supposed to “serve and protect”.

  9. jack says:

    Wonder what Abraham Lincoln would think or the 1000’s of WHITE union soldiers that died fighting to abolish slavery. The GOV has created a society of leaches with no respect! Has everyone forgot this man just robbed a store before he was killed? delacrat , Wilson did serve and protect! Wilson protected himself from a criminal with deadly force! SO BE IT

  10. Dunleve says:

    “unarmed American”

    To vague, probably should give a better description.

    An unarmed gang member who attempted to steal an officer of the law’s firearm, following theft at a local shop.

  11. Dave says:

    Multiple wrongs do not make it right.
    Brown made a poor decision, stole cigars, and walked in the middle of the street where he would be noticed.
    Wilson made a poor decision in pulling his car up too close to Brown, giving Brown the upper hand.
    Wilson made a poor decision in not waiting for back up.
    Brown made a poor decision in having an altercation with Wilson.
    Wilson made a poor decision in firing his weapon rather than using a taser at an unarmed person
    The citizens of Ferguson made a poor decision in destroying their own businesses as means of protest.
    The authorities made a poor decision in announcing the grand jury decision late in the day after allowing frustration and suspense to build.

    All in all, a whole bunch of poor decisions on everyone’s part. Critical thinking skills remain in short supply in Ferguson. Brown felt entitled to take cigars and walk wherever he wanted. Wilson felt entitled to use lethal force (and apparently training at the range considering how many bullets he flet the need to fire). The protesters felt entitled to burn the b**** down. Lot’s of entitlement going around.

  12. pandora says:

    I’m sure you can supply a link to your claim that Mike Brown was in a gang, right.

    And about Wilson’s gun. Here’s Wilson’s testimony (Read the transcript – all of it):

    “He immediately grabs my gun and says, “you are too much of a pussy to shoot me.”

    But… the gun was never tested for Brown’s fingerprints.

    Investigators could have helped to prove or disprove Wilson’s testimony by testing his service weapon for Brown’s fingerprints. But the gun was not tested for fingerprints. An investigator argued before the grand jury that the decision was made not to test the weapon because Wilson “never lost control of his gun.”

    So which was it? Did Mike Brown grab Wilson’s gun, or not?

    The investigator also says that Wilson says he didn’t know about the incident at the store. (page 55 on the Grand jury testimony) So why did Wilson stop Brown and Johnson?

    See the questions? If only we had a way of weighing evidence in this country, something like… say… a trial.

  13. Dave says:

    I recall reading that a DNA analysis report revealed that Brown’s DNA was found inside Wilson’s car, on the officer’s shirt and pants, and the interior left front door handle. Brown’s blood was also found on Wilson’s gun. Not sure what it really means because if Wilson had contact with Brown outside the car and after Brown was shot, DNA and blood could have gotten on the guy at that point. Still, I can understand how attempting to grab a gun that is in someone else’s grip, would not necessarily leave any fingerprints but leave DNA.

    Still it’s valid point about a trial, but grand juries are part of our justice system. They weighed the evidence and found no reason to indict. I haven’t seen or read all the evidence so I am unable to form an opinion as to whether the jury was right or wrong. Perhaps the grand jury could be added to the list of those who made poor decisions.

  14. Dunleve says:

    All you want is a link? I am sure you have seen them, there are numerous results under Google. I’d rather not provide links for you to simply discredit.

    The numerous pictures online speak for themselves. St. Louis is one of the most dangerous cities in this Country. (Even a CNN link) You don’t wear red and flash gang signs as an impostor.

    http://money.cnn.com/gallery/real_estate/2014/02/03/dangerous-cities/5.html

    “So which was it? Did Mike Brown grab Wilson’s gun, or not?”

    —“Attempted”—

  15. That’s not quite accurate, Dave. The grand jury weighed the evidence and determined that it was insufficient to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt on any count they considered. That’s a far cry from saying they found no reason to indict.

  16. Frank Knotts says:

    FDR, you say the people have a right to protest, and you are correct, in fact it is in the First Amendment, ” or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
    So are you saying that burning and looting can be considered a peaceable assembly?
    As for why I gave examples of a more recent time, well because they closely mirror Ferguson. In all the cases I mentioned you have an element of racial bias being accused. And following you had riots and demonstrations.
    My question has nothing to do with whether or not the shoot was justified (Delacrat), the question is, does the burning and looting serve justice for anyone?
    Try to put away your personal agendas and focus on the question.

  17. pandora says:

    So no link, or proof, to your claim that Mike Brown was in a gang. Not surprised.

    Attempted? Well, let’s look at Wilson’s own words: “He immediately grabs my gun and says, “you are too much of a pussy to shoot me.” He didn’t say attempted.

    And I have read the testimony from the Grand Jury. I’d suggest others do the same.

    Frank, I have no idea what point you’re trying to make with your question – altho, the question and the pictures are quite leading, designed for the reader to say, “D’uh, no.” How would you answer it? No one (yes, I’m sure there are a few, but I’m talking about reality based people not nuts) is defending the looting, burning, etc.. So what really is your point?

    I haven’t searched (Don’t have time now. My son arrives home from college any minute), but could you supply me links to your posts on the New Hampshire Pumpkin Festival riots? or the Huntington Beach riots? or the University of Delaware riot. I’d be interested in how you covered those events. Thanks.

  18. delacrat says:

    “My question has nothing to do with whether or not the shoot was justified (Delacrat), the question is, does the burning and looting serve justice for anyone?” – Frank, November 26, 2014 at 7:21 pm

    Your focus on ‘burning and looting’ is misplaced. “burning and looting’ is not on par with murder. The issue is why do cops act like it’s ‘open season’ on black guys.

  19. Frank, no need to recite the First Amendment to me. I have written a couple of articles showing how the First Amendment is being undermined by the powers that be so I am fully aware of the four rights it guarantees.

    I believe I adequately pointed out in my initial response that pictures only capture a split second in time and by far do not tell a story. That is why I have problems with speed and red light cameras. I went through each picture you posted and posed questions based on what I thought the possible story the pictures were saying. I posed my questions because you appeared to be trying to link the violence to the protestors who were legitimately upset and protesting what they perceived as a miscarriage of justice to the violence. I, in no way, stated nor implied that violence in a protest is a Constitutionally protected form of free speech.

    I questioned the examples of previous protests with violence you provided for one simple reason – you cited only protests begun by Black citizens related to race issues. I wanted to point out that all protests, historically, end up in violence regardless of the protest’s cause or the color of one’s skin. If you want a more immediate example that is not race-based as the media portrays it, our last violent protests that garnered national attention were Take Over Wall Street. The same forces at work in Ferguson that I linked to were the same forces inciting violence in those protests. So I ask you (yes, this is a key question): why did you choose to center your post on race-related protests and ignore all the other protests that were just as recent (there’s more if you dig deeper; they just didn’t garner national attention) as your oldest example, Rodney King?

    The other point I tried to make (and maybe ineffectually) was that protests, historically, end up violent with lots of property damage and loss of life. No, we should not accept the violence as a “fact of life”, but we need to look at who is inciting the violence. Any future laws governing a protest should center on those who are inciting the vandalism and violence. Laying blanket blame on everyone – including the multitudes of peaceful protestors – only makes it easier for the government to start limiting our rights to peacefully assemble and protest.

  20. Mike Rowe says:

    FDR,

    There are five rights guaranteed by the First Amendment, but as someone who has written a couple of articles on how it is being undermined I am sure you already knew this.

  21. waterpirate says:

    Happy Turkey Day! To most of you reading this, the rest can just ” Pi$$ off ” as a British freind of mine is fond of saying. lol

    I find this trend in behaviour unacceptable. The behaviour of both the Police and the protesters in this case. In 2014 there is no excuse for armed law enforcement to shoot and kill a un armed citizen. PERIOD! Technology and education has granted us other options, that I fear some police officers will not or can not employ due to ego.

    By the same scale of measure. Technology and education should have afforded the protesters a slew of other options besides violence and destruction.

    The police are not omnipotent, and citizens have no ” right ” to violence and destruction.

    As to racism in this Country? I am sure it is alive and well unfortunately, but it is all in how you choose to interpret the days events. Yesterday morning in the pouring rain, 3 of us went to a southern diner for breakfast. 2 whites and 1 black. Upon entering and waiting to be seated the hostess asked if all 3 of us were together. We responded yes. She then said I will seat you guys in the back. Eyebrow goes up. We were led to the very back and sat in the corner under dim lighting all by ourselves in an unused dining room. After being seated she took our drink orders and stated, you guys feel free to carry on and such back here. An activist would interpret this as blatent racism, we interpreted it as a hostess being familiar with 3 working guys in the rain, who were given to bawdy behaviour. What was the real intent? Only she knows, but I want to interpret the glass as half full and impart positive change when ever I have the chance to influence our little world here in lowere DE.

  22. pandora says:

    First, Happy Thanksgiving to you, too!

    “An activist would interpret this as blatent racism, we interpreted it as a hostess being familiar with 3 working guys in the rain, who were given to bawdy behaviour. What was the real intent? Only she knows, but I want to interpret the glass as half full and impart positive change when ever I have the chance to influence our little world here in lowere DE.”

    How people react to these situations depends on their personal life experiences. They don’t have to be activists – just people with different life experiences than yours or mine. And while the waitress’s motivations may have been/probably were benign, how a person views them depends on their past experience. If your experience consists of being given the worst table in a restaurant then you might not give the benefit of the doubt – even when warranted due to the frequency in which this sort of thing occurs.

    Middle/upper middle class white people have very different perspectives/expectations when being pulled over/approached by the police than black people do. There’s a reason for that.

    It would be interesting if you had this sort of conversion with your black friend and get back to us. (Not assigning homework!) It’s just that I have found in discussing experiences with my black and brown friends that I have a lot to learn. There are different rules for different people in this country.

    A few days ago a 12 year black old boy was shot dead by the police. He was in a public park and carrying/playing with an air rifle (in an open carry state, btw). The police drove their car right up to him (WTF is with that move?) and within seconds he was dead. It makes no sense – at least not to me, but that’s my privilege talking.

  23. William Christy says:

    Happy Thanksgiving or Day of Mourning depending which you celebrate.

    Pandora the boy was brandishing a replica semi automatic air soft pistol. Also the orange tip had been painted over in violation of Federal firearms regulations. Watching the video released it appears the officers pulled up that close to isolate the boy from others because of the fact the call came in that he was pointing his gun at others in the park. As the cruiser pulled up it”s reported the officers saw the boy stuff the gun in the waistband of his pants. The officers told the young boy to put his hands in the air at least three times, he did not comply.

    It is a horrific tragedy, my question is were the boys parents aware that he had either painted or removed the orange safety tip, and why was he in the park with a replica gun without supervision.

  24. pandora says:

    Not sure if you’ve read up on this story.

    “The grainy surveillance video released by authorities shows that Rice was shot less than two seconds after officers arrived on the scene. Edward Tomba, deputy chief of the Cleveland Police Department, said Wednesday that the officers called three times for Rice to drop his weapon..”

    Less than 2 seconds? And the fact that the police pulled up right next to him instead of at a safe distance? And the officer supposedly ordered him to put up his hands 3 times in less than 2 seconds before shooting him? Are you really okay with this? Blaming the victim? A kid? And if the problem is with the toy gun, let’s ban them. No? Then what? Because killing someone in under two seconds is unacceptable. Hell, can someone even follow orders in less than two seconds?

    What if the officers had pulled up further away? Talk about escalating a situation into a do or die scenario.

    A 12 year old is dead, just like the guy in Walmart who was shot dead while holding a flippin’ Walmart product. Houston, we have a problem.

  25. And I’m sure you know the First Amendment can be summed up in four basic rights regardless of the six points it specifically states, Mike.

  26. waterpirate says:

    Pandora,

    Valid point and question as allways. There is more to the story. The amount of calories that I consume are the stuff of legend. So after a delicious breakfast, that tale was told later in the day. The intro to the story started, “He took us to a diner and we had to sit in the back” when being related to another black co-worker. The tale went on un related to the seating, but I plan a follow up on Monday to get that other perspective.

    The most recent shooting…. Again where was the time to think, about anything, in 2 seconds prior to the death of another child. I would and am prepared to say we need cop control not gun control. Also trying to shift responsability to the victim or the victims parents in this case is despicable. We train and hire police to protect and serve with good judgement and high moral character. These incidents prove we are doing a poor job of it in other places. I think that DSP for the most part does a real good job of policing it’s own from within, and weeding out poor candidates. It our local departments that I worry about.

  27. fightingbluehen says:

    I don’t no much about Michael Brown’s character other than the video of where you can see how he treated the store clerk, but to me , that’s pretty telling in itself.

    Pretty tragic turn of events anyway. The cop probably should not have given chase after his gun misfired multiple times and then discharged in the patrol car. Pretty sketchy situation.

    I don’t put too much faith in people like Michael Brown, and I don’t trust cops much either. So, in my mind it’s hard to draw a definitive conclusion.

  28. FROGGY says:

    In Sussex there ain’t no peace in sight,
    ‘Cause there ain’t no justice on Delaware Right.

  29. pandora says:

    I’d be very interested in hearing about that discussion, Waterpirate. I have learned so much by having these sorts of talks. I have some advice on how to approach these talks, but don’t want to seem presumptuous because, well, I don’t want to insult you by offering advice you don’t need. If you’d like to hear my take on these sorts of conversations, let me know.

  30. waterpirate says:

    I will tell all after Monday. I agree that these disscussions must be tactfull. I am on pretty firm footing as the people who will be involved are my equals in every aspect, as well as freinds, so we have alot of mutual respect for each other and our opinions. If you have anything to offer beyond that, send me a PM. Oh right, we do not have that here. lol Frank can give you my e-mail if you do not feel the discussion is open board worthy due to the childrens participation.

  31. FlimFlamMan says:

    IT’s AMPHLIBIVIOUS!

  32. pandora says:

    You can email me at pandora@delawareliberal.net

    Confidentiality guaranteed.

  33. Frank Knotts says:

    I would like to thank most of you for the great discussion, this is what I had hoped for, though we got a little sidetracked as some sought to find hidden meanings in my posting of the photos.
    My intentions with this post was simply to discuss the situation in a national story, I chose other examples that closely mirrored the current one, which means, conflicts involving an element of racism. I was not interested in retrying the grand jury case, I wanted to go deeper and ask why does this segment of our society react in this manner?
    If we act as if these issues do not exist, or accuse others of being racist simply because they talk openly about the issue, then we will never communicate in a way that allows us to actually solve problems.
    And FDR, as much as I hate to compliment the TEA people, the TEA movement for the most part were peaceful demonstrations, with isolated incidents of individual violence, but never did we see a TEA march turn into burning and looting. Where were your embedded instigators during those protest?

  34. It is not a race issue nor that “segment of society” compared to other people. It is a socio-economic issue with anger being focused on excessive police force. The incidents during the Wall Street protests were all (or nearly all) triggered by police actions. Obviously, Ferguson protests were triggered by police actions. The differences in violence levels were the neighborhoods where the protests were held and the police actions that triggered the violent responses. In the Wall Street protests, the police didn’t kill anyone and the protests were held primarily in business districts. In Ferguson, a citizen was killed and the protests held – or at least started – in neighborhoods. Since both protests were fueled by social media, including “professional” protest groups whose mission is to sow seeds of discord in any protest (a claim I adequately linked for you), the question isn’t “Why do Black people burn down their neighborhoods in protests”, but “Why do upper middle class neighborhoods have so much better police protection and equipment to deal with the troublemakers in a protest than the poor neighborhoods.” Of course, that may be an unfair question, too. The news reported today that most of the businesses damaged weren’t even in Ferguson, but in a nearby neighborhood where 10% of the businesses were vandalized.

    Since you tried to casually link my comments to calling you out on racism, I will point blank ask you – what did you hope your post would achieve by posting pictures without telling the full story? Lay blame on the protestors, and, by default, the color of their skin? I didn’t jump to that conclusion in my responses to you nor did I imply it. For some odd reason, you appear to feel a need to defend yourself against imaginary accusations.

  35. pandora says:

    “My intentions with this post was simply to discuss the situation in a national story, I chose other examples that closely mirrored the current one, which means, conflicts involving an element of racism. I was not interested in retrying the grand jury case, I wanted to go deeper and ask why does this segment of our society react in this manner?”

    I’m not understanding your intentions, Frank. You simply wanted to discuss the situation in a national story? How? What exactly did you want to discuss? You mention conflicts involving an element of racism, but then say, “I was not interested in retrying the grand jury case, I wanted to go deeper and ask why does this segment of our society react in this manner?” How do you expect to discuss Ferguson without discussing the grand jury decision? Going “deeper” would involve looking at all elements surrounding the event, right?

    And could you describe who “this segment of our society” is?

    I’ll second this FDR’s question: “what did you hope your post would achieve by posting pictures without telling the full story?”

  36. waterpirate says:

    Pandora,
    My identity does not concern me so much as having my email flooded with useless diatribe by the kids. I will drop you a line today.

  37. Frank Knotts says:

    Pandora, I do not fear answering your question, the black segment of our society, at least in recent times. As I said, are we to ignore that reality of the situation? Are we to act as if their has not been a pattern? Simply for political correctness?
    I don’t think we have to dissect the grand jury case because we have seen other examples of this type of reaction, and unless you will take the position that in all cases concerning race, the police are always wrong, then the discussion is how did the black community allow itself to get to this point. Of course that community has a history of being abuse, without question.
    But where are the leaders of that community speaking out against the looting and burning? And I don’t mean the lip service calls for calm.
    If black leaders continue to justify such actions based on history alone, then we can never find a way to better get along.
    To be critical of a race is not racism. I lay blame on myself and other whites for being afraid to openly discuss racial issues honestly. The fear of being called a racist is strong. Look here, I have attempted to start a discussion, and the questions have been to me questioning my intent, inferring some deeper meaning.
    Pandora and FDR, the reason I didn’t write a post on this topic is because I was looking for opinions from others, to simply start the conversation, which I did. Unfortunately you have chosen the easy way to deal with the topic. So be it.

  38. Thank you, Frank, for making your intent of this posting clear. I’ll bail out of the conversation instead of participating in your race-baiting game.

  39. pandora says:

    Oh FDR, his intent was clear from the beginning. I don’t think he even realized how it came across.

    Hey Frank, let’s try your words this way…

    But where are the (white) leaders of that community speaking out against the looting and burning at Penn State, Huntington Beach, NH Pumpkin Festival, UD, etc.? And I don’t mean the lip service calls for calm.

    Where were your posts on these white riots? Burning and looting must be addressed, right? You didn’t even pay lip service to these riots. Why not?

    If white leaders continue to justify such actions (racism, bigotry, homophobia, sexism, etc.) based on history alone, then we can never find a way to better get along.

    What is wrong with the white culture, Frank? What are white people doing about white people like Adam Lanza, James Holmes, Jared Loughner, etc.. What is the white community doing about racists and bigots and mass killers and homophobes and sexists? Really, we’re all white so we must all be on the same page, right? We all know each other, right? And when one white person speaks we all listen… right? Do you not see how ridiculous this is? How no race/group has a single spokesperson?

    “Pandora and FDR, the reason I didn’t write a post on this topic is because I was looking for opinions from others, to simply start the conversation, which I did.”

    If your goal was to put up an objective post and start a conversation you sorta failed on both points. Sorry.

  40. Veritas says:

    That’s because Delaware Right is a failure run by rejects.
    Any idiot can post photos and expect meaningful dialog, but it takes talent to do a creditable analysis to stimulate a deeper dialog,

  41. Thank you Pandora. You said it much better than I cared to.

  42. Veritas says:

    Sure, it failed because the person posting the photos is not up to the job, but he’s really good at fogging up discussions and spreading tripe.

  43. waterpirate says:

    Rule 4.

    I hate when all down state Republicans are assumed guilty/responsible for the actions of the dysfunctional executive committee.

  44. Frank Knotts says:

    Pandora, the Pumpkin Festival was a drunken festival that got out of hand, not a reaction to some other incident.
    The Huntington Beach riot was started, according to an eyewitness, “The melee started when someone was hit with a ketchup bottle from a second-story restaurant. The person threw the bottle into the crowd, triggering a fight that expanded into a small-scale riot.” And by the way, I wasn’t writing in 1986.
    I posted the photos with little commentary much like an open thread about a “CURRENT” situation. And instead of discussing it like adults, you have chosen the coward way of dealing with racial issues, you choose to make claims that I am racially motivated, and bring up past examples of other situations that bare no likeness to the one I posted on.
    Pandora, I make the same offer I have made to you in the past, if you would like to write a post about Huntington Beach riots, since they are so current and pressing, then submit it.
    You and FDR are intentionally turning a blind eye to the real problem here. Why have in recent times have the black communities chosen to react more and more violently in these cases. I believe it has to do with the leaders of that community seeing some benefit for themselves from perpetuating this violence.
    Now go ahead and call me a racist. At least I am not a coward. I challenge you to have a meaningful conversation that does not include asking me my intentions. My intentions are for open debate, not Ayotte like attacks.

  45. pandora says:

    Let’s break this down…

    “Pandora, the Pumpkin Festival was a drunken festival that got out of hand, not a reaction to some other incident.
    The Huntington Beach riot was started, according to an eyewitness, “The melee started when someone was hit with a ketchup bottle from a second-story restaurant. The person threw the bottle into the crowd, triggering a fight that expanded into a small-scale riot.” And by the way, I wasn’t writing in 1986.”

    First, I’m not sure what you’re referring to in 1986. The pumpkin festival riot happened this October and the Huntington Beach riot took place in July 2013.

    Why do you dismiss these white riots? I can list a lot more, but I’ll grant you that it sure looks like white people riot, loot, burn and destroy for stupid reasons – or should I say “Get out of hand” as you described it. And I wonder if blacks rioted after a Snoop Dogg concert if you would dismiss that as easily, or would that be cultural as well?

    You then ask, “Why have in recent times have the black communities chosen to react more and more violently in these cases.”

    Gee, I don’t know maybe because they have a lot in common with our founding fathers? You know, the men you guys love who rioted a lot. Go read Steve Newton’s post:

    1) “Rioting is never justified. In fact, it threatens to make matters worse.” This is the pious platitude that always grates on my nerves, particularly right after I teach the course in American history wherein our textbook authors encourage teachers to venerate the Founding Fathers who participated in the Stamp Act Riots, the riots after the Boston Massacre, the Boston Tea Party … These same “patriotic” interpreters of American history then proceed to either soft peddle, condemn, or ignore the Whiskey Rebellion, Shays’ Rebellion, the Dorrite Rebellion in New Jersey, the Renter’s Rebellion in New York’s Albany River Valley, Nat Turner’s Rebellion, the Landry Plantation insurrection, “Beecher’s Bibles” in Kansas, the John Brown raid, the Great Railroad Strike of 1877, and so on and so forth …

    We are, ironically, a country birthed upon the notion that political violence in the face of rank oppression IS justified after you’ve suffered and tried for years. That’s the “patriotic” message from the period 1763-1783, at any rate.

    […]

    A second unlovely fact: my friends (and I do have them, I am not speaking rhetorically here) in the 9-12, “Liberty,” and “Tea Party” movements are quick to employ the “pry my guns from my cold dead hand” and “the 2nd Amendment is intended to provide the means of resistance against government tyranny” and to praise all those armed militiamen etc. who headed out to the Bundy Ranch and drew a bead from snipers’ positions on Federal marshals … But people rioting and looting (no, I’m not about to deny that’s happening) in Ferguson cannot have principles, cannot be fighting oppression, cannot be patriotic because, because, because … Well, let’s see?

    Go read the whole thing, because you are guilty of this sort of thinking. You do not seem to think the people rioting in Ferguson have principles or are fighting oppression – that this is just something black people do.

    You then make this claim: “I believe it has to do with the leaders of that community seeing some benefit for themselves from perpetuating this violence.” Can you prove this statement, or is it just something you feel in your bones? I didn’t see black leaders promoting violence. What I saw were black leaders going above and beyond to tell people to remain calm and not to riot. Are you claiming they spoke in some sort of code? Specifically, what black leaders did you listen to that made you think this? Please provide links to their statements.

    And I didn’t call you a racist. I basically called you clueless, and I’m sticking with that descriptor.

    The rest of your comment is a bit whiny. You say, “Pandora, I make the same offer I have made to you in the past, if you would like to write a post about Huntington Beach riots, since they are so current and pressing, then submit it.” I don’t write for this blog, you do. But my blog did cover Huntington Beach and Ferguson. Why would you insist I submit a post here? Is that some sort of gotcha thing? Is submitting a post on your blog now some sort of requirement to join the discussion? Is my refusing to do so somehow equivalent with losing the debate? I don’t think so.

    And you’re kidding yourself if you think you simply “posted the photos with little commentary much like an open thread about a “CURRENT” situation.” That is not what you did. You took a specific situation with a specific history and tried to apply it to an entire race of people without any insight or nuance. It came across as, “Why do black people always behave like this.” If that wasn’t your intention then what was your point? At worst it’s a slanted piece designed to evoke the response you wanted. At best it’s lazy blogging.

    You say you want a meaningful discussion (and you really need to stop Ayotte obsessing mainly because Ayotte has no power and slinging that name around is far past its shelf life). What does that even mean? Perhaps you’d like to start that meaningful discussion. I’d be very interested in seeing what form that takes.

  46. No Frank. All I said is outside interlopers and socio-economic status are factors in the violence. You said because the protestors are Black, the protests turn violent. And let’s make one thing clear – you DO NOT want open, honest discussion. You want everyone to say “Look at all the Black people going ape. You don’t see White people doing that.” What you are arguing is akin to me pointing to the abortion clinic violence (yes, America’s “silent” terrorism”) and saying “Look at all those White Christians going ape because of the rhetoric their leaders spew every Sunday from the pulpit.”

  47. pandora says:

    Ooooh, that’s a great example, FDR! Funny how white people are always viewed as individuals – the lone (crazy) wolf and not part of white culture.

    Remember how the Virgina Tech mass shooter’s South Korean culture was discussed? I do. Remember how the Muslim Fort Hood shooter’s religion was discussed? I do. Remember how the white culture of Adam Lanza, Jared Loughner, James Homes, Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, Timothy McVeigh, Michael F. Griffin, Scott Roeder, Eric Rudolph, Eric Frein, etc. was discussed… oh wait… it wasn’t. Why not?

    Does this count as “meaningful” discussion?

  48. Frank Knotts says:

    Okay Pandora, first I did not “insist” that you submit a post, I made the offer. You and FDR have done nothing here except deflect and accuse.
    You list above any number of examples that I should write about, but mass shootings are not the same as the Ferguson issue.
    I will be the first to admit that when profiling mass shooters, serial killers, and the like it is almost always white men, within a certain age group with certain economic backgrounds. Does that mean that to discuss the fact that most mass killers are white, I would first have to list all of the black serial killers in an attempt to show that not just white people do this?
    But we are not talking about a mass shooting. We are talking about a reaction to a police action.
    If there are examples of white communities rioting after a police officer has shot a white person, then please use that as an example since that would be relevant. Otherwise you are only race baiting.
    Sorry but you did not give links to your examples, and the Huntington Beach riot I found was from 1986, if there are others maybe it shows that there is a problem in Huntington Beach, like too many college kids having too many beers. The Pumpkin Festival again was a drunken riot that the police had to end, not a riot in response to police actions.
    My question remains, what is it within the black community that leads to these actions in recent times.
    Is it socio-economics alone? Is it nothing more than mistrust of the police in general, and if so why does this not lead whites like the TEA people to these actions? Or is it cultural, is it the pop-culture that shows black as nothing more than athletes or gangsters that lead young black men to think that is all there is?
    These are questions, not statements.
    Finally Pandora, do you truly believe that we can only discuss black issue if we do so from the perspective of pointing out white flaws?
    Whites are flawed as well, but unless you can show me a case where blacks rioted because they saw white people rioting, then I don’t understand you premise.

  49. pandora says:

    You are saying that blacks are rioting due to… what? Seriously, Frank, answer your own question. If you aren’t happy with others filling in the blank you left empty, then fill it.

    Is it because black leaders benefit? You’ve claimed this, but offered no proof.

    You asked, “why does this segment of our society react in this manner?”, but didn’t like the answers. Did you read Professor Newton’s post?

    You ask, “My question remains, what is it within the black community that leads to these actions in recent times.” As if all this happens in a bubble. As if we ask these sort of questions about the white culture (we don’t) or the role systemic racism plays in this. As if there isn’t a flippin’ ton of history we can turn to for explanations. You don’t want to have a “meaningful” discussion, Frank. You want to discuss the black culture without considering any history (past or present).

    And why do you limit black culture to athletes or gangsters? Are you for real? Maybe the reason you can’t have a meaningful discussion is due to your limited knowledge. Every time you comment on this thread you reveal your ignorance. You’re very comfortable with stereotypes.

    And if you truly believe you can discuss black culture without discussing white culture then you really are clueless. It would be like me saying let’s discuss pro-life protestors, but you can’t discuss abortion. Why do pro-lifers behave this way? Remember, Frank, no citing abortion or Roe v Wade. Limit your discussion to just the protestors’ actions.

    You’ve set up a ridiculous premise and instead of just owning it you keep doubling down. You put up pictures of blacks rioting and titled your post Is This Justice?. Justice for what, Frank? Oops, I forgot. We aren’t allowed to discuss that.

  50. Before I give a full response, let me see if I got your argument straight, Frank. Black people react with violence because they follow the wrong leaders and idolize the wrong role models. They should be more like White people so that their protests are less violent . Is that what you’ve been saying in a nutshell?

  51. RINO Hunter says:

    Knotts:

    Once again, you are in over your head. Stick to sports, trucks, TV , movies, etc. and leave the deeper issues to the sentient.

  52. fightingbluehen says:

    “Is it because black leaders benefit? You’ve claimed this, but offered no proof.”

    Are you saying that Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, and Lois Farrakhan don’t benefit from racial tension?

    Why do you think people call them race hustlers.

  53. delacrat says:

    “Are you saying that Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, and Lois Farrakhan don’t benefit from racial tension?

    Why do you think people call them race hustlers.”fightingbluehen

    The grand-daddy of all ‘race hustlers’ was Ronald Reagan with his ‘welfare queens’ presidential campaign.

  54. waterpirate says:

    Soooo, Come to find out that it really does hinge on what side of the fence you are on, grass greener and all that. As well as your life experiances and those you were taught that influence our perception of events.

    Rewind back to the diner. We all heard what she said. Although my fellow travelers were not offended by the statement, no matter what the intent. It struck a nerve. Today I was given a history lesson that is more recent than we all care to believe. It opened my eyes wide.

    If we discount the children having children as a generation, te reality is we are only one generation removed from the segregation in the military of ww2. A 1/2 generation removed from the forced segregation and blacks and poor white trash drafted first for vietnam.

    That reality means that blacks my age who were taught and shared the experiances of their parents are still very real. The disscussion made me want to puke when I ” got it “. We try to believe that it was all in the past, but really it was 1 generation ago. clearly a still open wound with much work to do.

  55. Frank Knotts says:

    Pandora asked, “You are saying that blacks are rioting due to… what? Seriously, Frank, answer your own question.” Well Pandora I notice that you keep insisting that I tell you what I think, in between you inferring that I am a racist because I dare to speak honestly. I wonder, is this just a tactic, is it easier to play this game rather than giving an honest opinion?
    Blacks are rioting because they feel that they can never get a break in the white man’s world, and that the entire legal system is the white man’s world.
    They have a legitimate history to bear this out. Many of them can trace their legacy back to slaves brought here against their will. And once given their “freedom” they were held in a type of economic slavery, if they wanted work then they had to behave a certain way.
    But they as a people sought an identity, who were they? They had no ancestry to look to identify themselves. They are a microcosm of the so called melting pot of America, while they are labeled under the umbrella of many names, Negros, blacks, Afro-Americans, African-Americans, they really are a conglomeration of several peoples, without a single heritage to point to.
    It is as if a completely new nation of people sprung up out of the ground, but without the building and evolving that a nations goes through. No growing pains, and no learning curve. But this was no separate and sovereign nation of people, it was a people held in check by a system run by white, and forbidden to them.
    But people rose to lead, In my life time Martin Luther King Jr., Malcom X, and others. They talked about black pride, and black ownership. They talked about education, and success based on what a person could achieve through their own labors. I believe that I read once that Malcom X when asked by a young white activist, what they could do to help the black people, X responded, “nothing”.
    So the black community as a whole fought for equal rights, and they won, at least technically.
    But in winning they demanded too much, they sought reparations for their centuries of servitude. They demanded services and subsidies, and those who didn’t demand it, accepted it. In my opinion the black community hold their own slave chains now, every time they accept a hand out from the government. The same as I believe that local governments will never be free from state and federal infringement upon their sovereignty as long as they take funding, I believe that the black people will never truly be free in this nation as long as they accept those hand outs.
    So what are we seeing in Ferguson? Are we seeing protest for equal rights? Maybe in some cases.
    Or, are we seeing a people who have been in the past mistreated by the nation they were forced to call home, seeking revenge for those wrongs? Again, in some cases yes.
    So, why are black people rioting? Because they are a people without a sense of self, that many of us take for granted. They are a people that have allowed a large segment of their community to become reliant upon the very system they hate and mistrust. So that when that system hurts them in anyway, for any reason, they feel powerless, for how can you destroy that which supports you?
    So what do you, what can you do? You destroy that which is closest to you.
    I do not believe that it is a race issue as to why blacks riot in these situations. I do believe it is a cultural issue. Your race can never change, but your culture can, just look how afraid some people are of the Hispanics forever changing the “American” culture. The black culture has changed many times. I think that currently their is a segment of that culture that feels powerless to use the system to insure their freedoms. If their is a message that we as white Americans need to relate, and mean, is that we are all Americans, we are all created equal, and that if one man has his rights violated then we are all less for it.
    But with our rights go responsibilities. We are guaranteed the right to assemble, and to seek redress of our grievances. Civil disobedience has a long and often honorable history. “Sit Ins”, and marches to stop wars. Marches and being arrested and beaten for Civil Rights. However one can never win freedom or rights by destroying those of others. The burning and looting do a dishonor to the great black leaders of the past.
    Yes Pandora I read Mr. Newton’s article. I find it hard to not see his bias, his anger comes through loud and clear. I do find it funny that he would compare the rioters in Ferguson to our Founding Fathers.
    I myself have on occasion pointed out that the American Patriots were nothing more than terrorist, after all terrorism all depends on which side you are on.
    The problem I have is that the Founders had no mechanism in place to find that redress. There was the King, and nothing else. Now I know that many would say that we simply have a GOVERNMENT for King now. I am not ready to give up on it just yet. And if any people, white black or Martian, want to make a change they have to get involved, one has to wonder if the match lighters in Ferguson have ever voted.
    I look back to King and X, if the black community is ever going to be really free and fully enfranchised in this nation, then they must seek ownership of something, they must insist on education for their children beyond the public school system. They must first police their own communities, they must condemn, not excuse violence, they must take responsibility for their own actions, as well as their own futures. And they can never do any of these things, in my opinion, as long as they are dependent on government for their lives.
    The path is there, they are free to walk it, but they have to make the choice. They have the same chance that others have, though there are unique challenges that I and others cannot understand.
    As Malcom X spoke to the young white activist, there is nothing I can do to help black people except to get out of their way. The rest is up to them. Unlike others, I feel that the worst type of racist is the one who thinks that black people “NEED” their help. I have known, loved and respected many people of color in my life, and never once did I think they needed my permission for anything.
    And this is what you would have gotten from me if you had not shown up with your built in narrative of what an old white guy is supposed to be.
    And FDR, if that is what you got from anything I wrote, then I now understand the “Drunk” part of your name.

  56. When all else fails, resort to name calling. That ends this discussion for me because I don’t think you really want me to say anything about what you just wrote.

  57. pandora says:

    Forgive me for asking what you meant by a post you put up. Obviously, asking what motivated you to put up this post was crossing the line. It isn’t a “tactic”, Frank. It’s blogging. And your constant defensiveness is tiresome. For someone who claims to have a problem with victim-hood, you sure are good at it.

    What’s interesting is how you separate the black community from yourself and America. How you (sorta) acknowledge systemic racism, but then fall back on the “pull yourselves up by your bootstraps” argument. It’s also interesting, given everything Martin Luther King Jr and Malcolm X said, that you focus (twice) on the one quote that relieves you of any responsibility. It’s “their” problem, right?

    Moving on to your next point…

    So the black community as a whole fought for equal rights, and they won, at least technically. But in winning they demanded too much, they sought reparations for their centuries of servitude. They demanded services and subsidies, and those who didn’t demand it, accepted it. In my opinion the black community hold their own slave chains now, every time they accept a hand out from the government.

    Wow. They demanded too much? Really? Care to flesh out that statement? Did they receive reparations? I guess you could cite the 40 acres, but you’d need to know your history to discuss what happened there. As far as services and subsidies… are you actually saying that these government programs came about due to the black community’s demands? Are you actually claiming this? It sure sounds like it. Reread your paragraph above and get back to me.

    And I’m not even going to deal with your slave chains comment. It’s not only tone deaf, it also displays a stunning lack of historical intelligence. Perhaps while the black community is insisting on better education for their community they can throw in a good word for you.

    And then there’s this bit of broad brushing nonsense:

    So, why are black people rioting? Because they are a people without a sense of self, that many of us take for granted. They are a people that have allowed a large segment of their community to become reliant upon the very system they hate and mistrust. So that when that system hurts them in anyway, for any reason, they feel powerless, for how can you destroy that which supports you?

    This isn’t speaking truth or being honest, Frank. It’s offensive. You are sitting in judgement over a group of people and blithely assigning motivations to their actions based on your musings. You’ve dismissed their concerns as frivolous – worse, you’ve blamed them for problems and systems not of their making. You’ve stereotyped the black culture’s role models, limiting them to athletes and gangsters – a comment that reveals far more about you then it does the black community. It’s your understanding of the black community that’s limited to ESPN and rap music.

    Why do you refuse to grant the Ferguson protesters principles? Are you the arbiter of what people may, and may not, stand for? Become upset over? Does everyone need to run their grievances past Frank Knotts? No one has said you have to agree, but a glimmer of understanding and historical accuracy would be appreciated.

    Here’s some reading for you which, hopefully, will shed some light on how systems are set up to keep poor people down. Have you finished reading it? Good. Now tell me how this grievance has to do with services and subsidies.

    Now we move onto…

    Unlike others, I feel that the worst type of racist is the one who thinks that black people “NEED” their help. I have known, loved and respected many people of color in my life, and never once did I think they needed my permission for anything.

    But you do think the Ferguson protesters need your permission, Frank. You’ve clearly stated that they’re doing it wrong and even gave them advice on what they should be doing. You’ve spelled this out in no uncertain terms.

    And you close with this:

    And this is what you would have gotten from me if you had not shown up with your built in narrative of what an old white guy is supposed to be.
    And FDR, if that is what you got from anything I wrote, then I now understand the “Drunk” part of your name.

    First, you owe FDR an apology. That was out of line. He asked you respectfully worded questions and instead of answering him you lashed out. What was so out of line about his questions? Why couldn’t you answer them? If that wasn’t what you were saying, why not clarify? He used your own words, Frank. If you misspoke, or he misunderstood, then explain. Personally, I think he summed up your comments quite accurately, but they may just be me.

    Second, let’s look at the narrative I showed up with. Here is my very first question to you:

    Frank, I have no idea what point you’re trying to make with your question – altho, the question and the pictures are quite leading, designed for the reader to say, “D’uh, no.” How would you answer it? No one (yes, I’m sure there are a few, but I’m talking about reality based people not nuts) is defending the looting, burning, etc.. So what really is your point?

    I showed up here with questions, Frank. So, your claim that your last comment is what I would have gotten from you if I had just asked is utter BS.

    So, in the end, you set the narrative, Frank, then became upset when people questioned you on it – even going as far as to try and limit what people could discuss. Discussing why the people of Ferguson were rioting… off topic? We should only discuss the behavior of some protesters not what had them protesting? Yep, that was your narrative… and it was weak.

  58. fightingbluehen says:

    Concerning the burning and looting in Ferguson, Frank asked a question. ” Is this justice for anyone?”

    The answer is obviously no. The burning and looting provides no justice for anyone.

    Truth leads to justice, a narrative does not. The “science” seems to collaborate with law enforcement in this case.

    Also can someone provide evidence that African Americans are shot by police more than non African Americans committing similar crimes.

    Is it really one sided ? From what I gather today’s cops are trigger happy towards everyone. Military culture has permeated into law enforcement, and I sometimes get the feeling that they confuse ordinary citizens with terrorists.

    Maybe it’s due to decades of war, and possibly the fact that many veterans who return home end up serving in law enforcement, which I gather would also have some effect in overall law enforcement culture.
    It also may be that American culture overall has become more violent for many reasons.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but here in Sussex, it’s mostly white people getting shot by the police.

  59. Themistocles says:

    Frank
    You are being painted as Kloset Kluxer and I agree with your detractors. This isn’t the first time you’ve been accused of being a racist and I’m sure it won’t be the last. Every time you open your mouth you manage to insert both feet into it and that’s quite a feat.
    I will keep up the tradition that Mr. Winston started
    NOT FRANK KNOTTS

  60. Frank Knotts says:

    Pandora, I have to say your complete last comment has absolutely no weight behind it after you make this statement, “worse, you’ve blamed them for problems and systems not of their making.”
    Considering that I had said in my previous comment this, ” it was a people held in check by a system run by white, and forbidden to them.”
    So if you are so blinded by your personal narrative, and views to be able to see you said the exact same thing.
    Take a moment to yourself Pandora, and ask yourself this, in the time you have been reading my “musings”, have you not heard me say the exact same thing about society as a whole? That to be reliant upon government for you life makes you a “slave”.
    It is the same conservative message that I and others have been proclaiming for quite some time, maybe that is what bothers you about it, “all of the silly stand on your own two feet” crap!
    So what do you do, you fall back to old tried and true tactics, if a person dares to speak honestly about the challenges of another race, then he is automatically a racist.
    Tell me Pandora, are you certified to make judgment calls about who is a racist and who isn’t, you remind me of the people who were criticizing me on the other thread because I didn’t get the prayer to their liking.
    You attempt to marginalize my view point by deeming it racist, I am now supposed to shrink away in fear of your displeasure.
    FDR, WOW, it is called sarcasm, and take a joke, you do use “Drunk” in your name, come on man.
    Themistocles, yes I have been called a racist, what have you been called in your life, and is it always true?

  61. Perhaps if I knew you better, Frank (that’ll come with time) or you followed your comment with a :) I wouldn’t have misread your intent. Sorry. Let’s chalk it up to the limitations of communicating through the written word and move on. I’m sure we’ll butt heads later. :)

  62. WINSTON says:

    Who posts insightful and cogent comments?

    NOT Frank Knotts

  63. Frank Knotts says:

    FDR, :)

  64. Frank Knotts says:

    Oh, and Winston, you may want to read this before your next comment.
    http://www.delawareright.com/disagree-when-we-must-agree-when-we-can/#respond

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