The phrase, “both sides” has gotten a lot of attention lately, and believe me, the last thing I want to do is defend President Trump. The riots in Charlottesville Va. this past weekend were the result of many angry people coming together.
Of course the first thing we need to talk about is the right of every citizen of this great nation to gather together in a public place, and peacefully assemble. There has been much talk about who had a permit and who may have had a permit and whether or not they were demonstrating in their assigned locations or not.
My feeling has always been, no one needs to acquire a permit to be on a public street, no matter why they are there. The only permit required is our constitutional First Amendment right to, again, peacefully assemble. I don’t care if you are there to promote white supremacy, or to counter protest white supremacy, or to promote the idea that strawberry ice cream is the only ice cream anyone should eat.
However, you lose that right, the very second you either become violent, or even impede my freedom to move about freely. If you block a highway, or a sidewalk, if you damage private or public property, if you harass, or threaten other people, if you break any of the laws put into place by our freely elected body government. At that point you become a criminal, and should be dealt with as such.
There has also been a lot of talk about who was at fault for the violence which occurred, and which tragically led to the death of a young woman. Please see my comment above about becoming a criminal.
There is likely no way to know who threw the first punch and or bottle. What we do know is a lot of people, and here it comes, on both sides, showed up prepared for violence. We saw shields, sticks, flack vest and other weapons.
Of course some will say it was the Nazis, and KKK and white supremacist who came intending violence, and that the counter protester were only responding, nay, defending themselves.
However, we need not look back all that far, to see some of the groups who were there to oppose the Nazis, at their own protest, and how they behaved. We have seen the so-called ANTIFA people also show up wearing helmets and mask, damaging property, and attacking people. Again, see my comment about becoming a criminal.
President Trump made a statement, there was blame on both sides for the violence. UGGGG! There you go, you went and made me do it. Listen, I am the first to say, President Trump may be the worse communicator, ever. EVER! But the media took that comment and ran with it, as if he had said the two sides were sharing the same message of hate. Clearly they are not. They each have their own separate message of hate.
Obviously as my mother, and every teacher I ever had always said, “it takes two to fight”.
Go back to the top of this post and look at that photo, on one side you have angry Nazis, on the other side you have a man, who clearly would never be a Nazi. Now you might say the Nazis were attacking him, and he defended himself the only way he could. He broke out the can of aerosol hairspray he just happened to have with him, and in the nick of time, dug his lighter out of his pocket, and lit the torch.
Wait a minute, I just got an email in response to the bridge I am selling.
Anyone, with even the smallest amount of intellectual honesty, knows and will admit, both sides showed up Saturday spoiling for a fight, and they both got what they wanted, attention.
This isn’t about ANTIFA, because they don’t represent the majority of Democrats, or people who self identify as progressive. It isn’t about Nazis, because they don’t represent the majority of Republicans or the people who self identify as conservative. This isn’t about the Civil War, or statues, it’s not even about racism, or violence.
It’s about power and control. There is a war being fought for control of our lives. The people who are waging this war use racism and other issues to divide us, because as history has shown, the easiest people to control, are a divided people.
Don’t fear the Nazis, fear the people who are what might be called soft racist. These are the people who make excuses for the actions on Saturday. They will say it was in response to the statue being taken down. Do you really think the Nazis care about Robert E. Lee? These people will condemn Nazis, and yet in the same breath, say the counter protesters started it.
On the other side you have people who feel if the Nazis had been prohibited from marching, then there would have been no need for a counter protest, and no confrontation. These are the people who would risk all of our rights, to be right.
Violence happens, because people are violent. Some violent people turn towards Nazism, and white power groups. They cut their hair a certain way, they buy into the hate filled rhetoric, and are all to glad to fight and destroy.
On the other side, you have violent people who say they are for freedom and inclusion, yet they are all too glad to attack people and destroy property, and hurl angry words and threats.
What middle America has to see, is these two groups, while they espouse different goals and rhetoric, they really are not that different in their tactics. It is when middle America allows itself to be pulled in one direction or the other, even if only on the outer fringe of these groups, there in lies the real danger to the American ideal, of all men are created equal.
We have been on this path for some time now. We have been moving further and further apart as American citizens. We have been drawing ourselves into smaller and smaller sub groups. What we are now seeing, are these sub groups forming larger groups, though loosely connected, to gain power to fight the other side which they have decided is the enemy.
If we allow this to happen, eventually, there will be a final showdown, which could finally end this great experiment, known as democracy.
It is time for all of middle America to join as a group, to come together as citizens, not as Nazis, or ANTIFA, or Democrats, or Republicans, or liberals, or conservatives. Not black or white, or Hispanic, just as Americans. If we do this, we can defeat the hatred of both sides.
I know some may attempt to spin this post as me defending Nazis, well you can kiss my rosy red backside.
“…. these two groups, while they espouse different goals and rhetoric, they really are not that different in their tactics. “ – Frank
Wrong. The Nazis used deadly force while the counter-protesters did not. BIG DIFFERENCE, Frank
Delacrat, I said they are not that different in their tactics, which involves violence, the death of the young woman was not a tactic, it was the result of those tactics.
ANTIFA is open about their views on the use of force. Here is an article worth reading, if you are open to seeing “both sides” of the debate.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/unmasking-antifa-anti-fascists-hard-left/index.html
In the article ANTIFA leaders are quoted as saying, “And their methods are often violent. Antifa leaders admit they’re willing to physically attack anyone who employs violence against them or who condones racism — as long as force is used in the name of eradicating hatred.”
And before you attempt to say this is self defense, take note of the entire statement, “or who condones racism”.
Condoning something is not a physical act, it is a mental act, which means these people are willing to be violent against someone simply based on their views.
It is ironic, a group who claims to be against fascism would act so much like fascist.
Yes, the Nazis claimed the first life, but if ANTIFA continues to use their same tactics of destruction and confrontation, and violence, they will inevitably also claim lives. This is highly likely, look again to the article and the admission their cause gain more attention when their protest turn violent. The need for more attention to grow the group will drive them to more and more violent acts.
This is also true of the alt-right groups as well.
There was a reason why Martian Luther King and other civil rights activist insisted their protester were to never to engage in violence, even in response to violence. Because when you do that, you become that which you claim to be against, and you lose the moral high ground.
I don’t have to defend ANTIFA in order to condemn Nazis. Wrong is wrong, and in this case, in my opinion, both sides are wrong in their tactics, and their results are likely to be the same as well.
I’m surprised so much emphasis is being given to tactics, when to me the root issue is not tactics but agendas. I don’t want to dive deeply into the agenda of the neo nazis/kkk/white supremacists, because i’m no expert. They seem to condone violence in pursuing an agenda of preserving and enhancing white supremacy over certain other groups. The Antifa/counter protesters seem to condone violence in pursuing their goal of tamping down of the rallies held by the neo nazis/kkk/white supremacists.
I want to be clear that i don’t pretend to know what is in the hearts or minds of every member, or any member of these two factions. But my gut tells me that even if their tactics are similar, the place to focus is on agenda.
Humans have a tendency to resort to violence, irrationality, and selfish interest when they think their backs are in a corner. I don’t expect much to come out of pointing that fact out. So that leaves agenda.
One side was a permitted KKK/white supremacist/Neo nazi side who committed terrorist murder similar to Isis we fought against in the Civil war and WWII and the other side opposed them
Mike, we are talking about the right to protest. It is only when any group becomes violent they lose that right. So it is the tactics which are the issue. Both sides use violence which means neither is peacefully assembling.
You may also want to notice that like those they oppose, ANTIFA labels all who disagree with them fascist. Just like the skin heads label all who disagree as the enemy. You are right, their agendas are at the root, and in my opinion both agendas are dangerous and destructive.
Is there any level of behavior on part of a republican POTUS that Republicans would condemn or is anything ok as long as it’s “your side”? Have you no decency ?
Mouse, your brush is a little too broad, I am a Republican and I am embarrassed and ashamed Trump won as a Republican. I also believe there ar more Republicans who feel the same way, but are unwilling to be attacked by the rabid right.
Frank, the difficulty you will have in applying this rather rational observation is that Trump Derangement syndrome is real. The Antifa, Alt Left, progressives and liberals have clearly displayed they care not what mainstream America wants, they want what they want and have decided they will use force. They have destroyed buildings, property, and advocated violence ever since Trump came on the scene. Now that he’s in office, they feel fully justified in defying laws, hurting people, denying people their constitutional rights, etc. The Nazis/ KKK racists are not Mainstream and I will never condone, support or justify their behavior. I can observe that their behavior has ramped up since the Antifa and Alt Left/ Occupy Wall street types began their crusade of anarchy. Both the Antifa and Neo Nazi crap has escalated because our government has not taken steps to enforce LAW. Antifa and uber liberals have incited riots, attacked people, encouraged black racism (BLM) and generally engaged in sedition. They have far exceeded free speech and advocated destruction or incited violence by being triggered. The Neo nazis and KKK have rather aptly witnessed this and are now emboldened to copy.
Charllottesville, should have kept both groups apart. Instead the democrat mayor and governor enabled a conflict for an impact. The murderer with the car will go to jail but how many other conflicts were allowed to be created by not keeping these groups apart. Ever watch a European soccer match? The stadium is separated and a column of police to keep fans of the opposing sides apart for the very reason that when they don’t, you’ll get Charllottesville.
Antifa and the BLM are Hate groups and they have incited violence against others, including police. When will they be held accountable for their crimes? The left wants to denounce the dirt ball Neo Nazis and KKK who, Should be denounced BUUTTTT, the left needs to denounce the Antifa (dressed like ISIS terrorists no less) and BLM. This is the gist of the entire argument. President Trump IS the president, just as Obama was. I despised the previous POTUS because of his policies and push to turn the country into something it is not. The left has now become entirely triggered and incapable of objective reasoning. Everything Trump has done, according to the left, is wrong. In many people’s view, Obama did nothing right. Not immigration, not ISIS, not Benghazi, not the IRS, not Russia and, and not Trade. So now that the shoe is a little on the other foot, the left has become terroristic in their tactics and they feel completely justified because Trump represents the opposite of their policy beliefs. The left’s inability to be rational will not win heart’s and minds except for kool aide drinkers who want to live in their parent’s basement and have the government (taxpayers) pay for everyone’s healthcare.
“Obama did nothing right. Not immigration, not ISIS, not Benghazi, not the IRS, not Russia and, and not Trade. ” This shows how stupid you are and that your hate for Obama blided you from what was really happening around you. Fake news indeed.
Meatball
Pick an obama topic, ANY obama topic and describe how it was a success?
Let pick some:
-Immigration: He refused to truly deal with US immigration law. Made exceptions for certain groups to stay. Encouraged Illegal immigrants to bring their children across the border and failed to denounce illegal immigrants who then protested in the US as though they had Citizen rights.
Fail: obama
-IRS: Met and coordinated the efforts by the U.S. to target U.S. citizen groups who peacefully attempted to engage in political action. Let that sink in. The U.S. P.O.S potus allowed a tax agency to target, harass and intimidate legal and law abiding citizens.
Fail: obama
-ISIS: obama’s foreign policies allowed for and contributed to the creation of ISIS. He refused to engage militarily when needed to stem the rise of terrorism. He allowed a terrorist organization to grow and spread. He’s gets points for killing Bin Laden but he released Gitmo detainees who helped create ISIS
Fail: obama
-Benghazi: He promoted and approved a completely false narrative that the Benghazi attack was spurred by a youtube video. Patently false, patently a lie, patently tail wagging the dog.
Fail: obama
-ACA (affordable care act): Where would you like to begin. What lie is more egregious? How about the name, it did not make healthcare more affordable. It made it more expensive and provided less coverage. It penalized those who already had healthcare and benefited those who refused to work or be responsible enough to carry insurance. It foisted another tax on those who already were paying taxes and then made them criminals if they refused.
Fail: obama
-Taxes: Increased the national debt more than ALL PRESIDENTS THUS FAR COMBINED!!
Fail: obama
-Russia: Refused to act on behalf of all Americans as evidenced by his hot mic conversation and allowed Hilliary to sell America’s Uranium rights.
-Arab Spring: created the environment that lead to political unrest, leading to violence and instability resulting in ISIS gaining a foothold.
Fail: obama
-Ferguson & Baltimore Riots: Refused to call a spade a spade and support the police resulting in violence and riots. Ignored facts of Black responsibility for the violence and blamed everyone else.
Fail: obama
-Cash for clunkers and GM/ Chrysler Bankruptcy: Fleeced the American taxpayer of billions of dollars while funneling money into UNION thugs.
Fail: obama
-Trade/ Industry: failed to encourage business except for those that have never proven themselves viable like solar and wind. Thwarted a pipeline, thwarted shale, thwarted efforts to drill for more oil to reduce prices and combat OPEC. Failed to address bad trade deals that shipped jobs overseas. Failed to address U.S. tax structure to reduce corporate taxes (U.S. has one of the highest in the world).
Fail: obama
Your turn Meatball. Please provide insight into all the successes obama has amassed. You don’t believe my FACTS are real. You label me ‘stupid’ and accuse me of being unable to see around me. What success did I miss? There are no indicators that my ‘bias’ is the cause of obama’s failures. They are HIS and his alone. He was successful at causing more racial tension which is impressive given his mixed race background. He was successful at alienating a large portion of taxpaying Americans. Please provide facts from your unbiased sources that contradict what has been described above. Please use the lump a foot above your shoulders and disavow the false narratives being passed around like kool aid because if you think obama has been a success, you are profoundly inaccurate.
Obama isn’t POTUS, it’s time for you macho talk radio boys to take responsibility for the carnage and national embarrassment you support.
Most of you angry resentful uneducated white boys would be a lot better off if you belonged to a union and didn’t blame them on your own lack of success.
Mouse, you are just pouring fuel on the fire. What carnage and embarrassment would that be? obamacare? Antifa, BLM, Minimum wage hikes that have reduced employment, Syrian conflict, Iran with nukes, North Korea with nukes paid for by Clinton taxpayer funded incentives, Riots in DC by ISIS inspired protestors, Riots in Ferguson, Illegal Immigration influx. What topic would you like the macho radio boys to take ownership of?
By your comment “angry resentful uneducated white boys”, I take it you are a super happy, highly educated (not necessarily intelligent) minority or female, who feels the country; with a doubling of national debt in 8 years, with immigration out of control and costing taxpayers while reducing services, with a healthcare system that has become more expensive and lower in service (that had to be passed to find out what was in it), with BLM demanding dead cops because the cops were enforcing the law, was on a truly remarkable path of ‘Progress’.
Tell us mouse, in your world of insults instead of facts, is there any acknowledgement on your part for the dysfunctional behaviors and attitudes in the liberal / democrat party? Abortion on demand but praying is insulting. Freedom to choose your pregnancy, sexual persuasion, gender, or speech should be unrestricted unless your opinion is opposite to the former. Then it’s a fascist scenario where Antifa can demand speech be shut down, or praying be outlawed, or sensitivity training is demanded to accept what are potentially mental disorders.
Please note that insults are not debate or discussion. They are the crutch of the uninformed or illogical. Are nazis and white supremacists dirt bags. YES, they are. Are they ‘allowed’ to hold opinions different than you or me. YES, they are. Can they incite violence, NO they can’t. It is a fine line. Can you commit
sedition? : (incitement of resistance to or insurrection against lawful authority) Apparently according to Antifa and the democrats, yes, to everybody else they are just as much or more dirt bag like. Are you on board with revolution just because you disagree with opinions? Antifa believes they have a responsibility to do so based on a lot of liberal media generated tabloid fodder. If you are on board to have the revolution, that’s fine but don’t be a hypocrite and insult people who hold different opinions than you. You might just find, if you’re objective, that some of the so called uneducated macho radio boys are have a better grasp of the situation than your echo chamber of progressives.
“… the so called uneducated macho radio boys are have a better grasp of the situation…” – knave
Knave, who is your favorite radio boy ?
Nazis must always be crushed wherever they appear. Every. Single. Time. No if’s, and, or buts.What planet are you from. Have you not read history. Antifa, which has been shortened by Nazis from anti-fascist banded together for protection from Nazis who single out and attack minorities in their midst.
Nazism is not a personal opinion, it is evil, plain and simple god boy.
I like the ‘radio boy’ who demands liberals and conservatives be consistent. I like the talking head that doesn’t feign outrage over a confederate statue while demanding abortion of a human fetus on demand.
Be clear, neo nazi filth are reacting to BLM filth and antifa terrorists. NONE OF THEM have a place at the table. The point of the topic is that liberals refuse to denounce antifa terrorists because they hate neo-nazis more. America’s antifa are NOT Europe’s antifa. Americas antifa are violent anarchists bent on breaking everything dressed like terrorists. If you are a democrat or liberal trying to take some false moral ground on this issue, go sit and spin. You might as well claim the moon is made of cheese. Anyone with any intellectual honesty can see these groups, if the incite or commit violence are terrorists. Treat them as such.
Break the law go to jail. simple as that. Police officers and presidents included.
Knave, and Meatball. I appreciate your comments, and I would like all who read this, recognize, in the beginning of your give and take, you were on opposite sides, or so it seemed. By the time of your last comments, you had found common ground.
Knave; “Anyone with any intellectual honesty can see these groups, if the incite or commit violence are terrorists. Treat them as such.”
Meatball;”Break the law go to jail. simple as that. Police officers and presidents included.”
While it may seem to some, you have nothing in common, you agree the law is the law.
Thank you. You have reached level one of the Delaware Right’s School of The Conversation.